COMMEMORATING VICTIMS

Interview with Agricola de Cologne
By Ana Peraica, 1 February 2008

Most of your projects have a commemorative character. What is the difference between your project and other projects of the kind, like governmental projects?

In a democracy, governmental or public projects mostly have the intention of dealing with history in a most objective way and turn the spotlight on the most thinkable aspects from the most different point of views, by using a variety of sources in order to underline this objectivity. Statistics play an important role, since they are said to represent the most objective way to tell facts. Even if this is not completely true, in statistics the human factor is nearly completely eliminated. They often become this way rather an expression of inhumanity. On the other hand, the view of history and the way people deal with history is not a static or constant value, but is different in each generation and different periods of history. So even if people have the best intentions, even under the most ideal circumstances, just a kind of relative objectivity remains, since it is always man made. In a totalitarian system, governmental or official projects are made to justify and underline the position of the current political ideology, and in nearly all cases they more or less neglect humanity completely. An art work, no matter what type of subject is used, whether commemorative or not, never has the intention to be objective, but the contrary to express the (most subjective) artistic ideas of an artist. So do I, and my personal point of view, the way I face things generally – and it’s not different from my position as an artist, whether I deal with commemorative aspects or not – my measure is always humanity. It determines the way I approach such projects that have never any ambition to cover all thinkable aspects, but reduced as they are, they go down to the essence of being and a level that has the potential to touch people and motivate them to reflect on what has been sensually experienced.

What is the main motive for making such projects on the Internet? Is there a certain extropian practice inscribed in making people that have gone, for any reason, constantly present online, an effect of balsaming a memory?

The first part of the question cannot be answered just in a few words. In the family I grew up, humanity had always been the basic measure for all. At school the idea of humanism had further lasting influence on my view on life. So when I started dealing with art at the age of 15, there was already the focus on the essential of human life, but I got the awareness for history and historical contexts only when I was about 35.

When in 1989, the wall in Berlin fell, this forced my life into a new direction. While travelling in the East of Europe, especially Poland, I was continuously confronted with Nazi history and the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler .... The following eight years I dedicated completely to a (physical) artistic memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... project dealing with this thematic context, a period that was on the one hand extraordinarily touchable, since I was confronted with the personal history of countless victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... But this represented also a most violent period, since I became a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... myself, highly traumatized, not just once, but over a longer period and on different levels. That was all highlighted by a panic attack, which did not only destroy a part of my artistic work, but it finished my life and my artistic career at that time. As a result I fell for some time in a kind of coma, but when I woke up, nothing was the way it had been before. I had to learn the essentials of life again, eating drinking, walking, everything was blocked. It returned after some time again, but it was really frightening that I had lost the sense of the material and physical. In this sense I was also not able to work any more physically as an artist the way I did before.

In order to train my brain and intellectual skills again, I started a kind of therapy by learning computer programming languages. When in 1999, the war and genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... in KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... was escalating, I felt motivated again to become active as an artist, but I did not know how.

At that time also the Internet became really popular and I got the idea to find out whether I could use the new knowledge of programming languages for something completely new related to creating art. And soon the virtual artist was born!

On 1 January 2000, I started a new life from point zero without any money and without any idea what eventually might come. My big life experiment had started, which still is running, by publishing online the mother of all future projects – “A Virtual MemorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...” as a kind of continuation of my previous physical memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... project, “A Living MemorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... Space of Art”, which was by the way installed at 43 places in Poland, Germany and the Czech Republic between 1995 and 1998, among them Auschwitz, Majdanek, Dachau and Theresienstadt, but also Krakow, Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg etc.

So, actually one can really not speak, at all, of a motive that was driving me to work as an artist on the Internet and/or one who is executing commemorative projects online. For me there was no alternative to becoming active as an artist again, and without being dramatic, without the Internet I would not have survived, since over a longer period I was highly at risk of committing suicideAccording to epidemiological investigations between 1.1% and 4.6% of the population have a suicidal attempt at some point during their life ....

The second part of the question sounds a bit polemic, but the first part is actually also answering the second one, since I did not open a kind of funeral for balsaming memory.

What is the difference between those memorials and pages of daily newspapers that daily announce who has died on the Internet? What do you think of the concept “collective traumaCollective trauma is a traumatic experience shared by a group of people or even an entire society ...”?

We learned already about the difference between my type of (art) working and public commemorative contexts and governmental memorials. Your question is mentioning a third party, i.e. the families or relatives of died victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... These memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... announcements in a newspaper or Internet have another goal: they follow the need of the affected families. They represent forums for collective mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ..., and this way a tool for overcoming an individual and also collective traumaCollective trauma is a traumatic experience shared by a group of people or even an entire society ..., for instance. A collective traumaCollective trauma is a traumatic experience shared by a group of people or even an entire society ... comes up, when many persons who are, and/or others who are not affected identify themselves with the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ....

There were already collective nationwide traumata, because the charismatic leader of a political party was killed, or simply dying.

The massacre of SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ..., and the mass-rape of Muslim women for instance, had the goal to produce such a collective traumaCollective trauma is a traumatic experience shared by a group of people or even an entire society ..., to paralyze people, to throw people into despair, to destroy living structures, social contexts, the consensus among nationalities and ethnical groups etc. They represented highly symbolic acts for the perpetrators, as well as much more for the affected families.

By making announcements on such forums, the families and relatives demonstrate also, the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are not forgotten; in fact the goal of the perpetrators failed in the end.

Somehow the tone of each project doesn't appear shocking, but rather peaceful. What do you think, from the perspective of your work, of works by Tarik Samarak, who has recorded a journey to SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ... taking photographs of parts of people's lives on the way? Or posters by Anur Hadžiomerspahic of branded clothes from the exhumation of the Srebrenica massacreThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ...?

Those artists who were dealing with the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... thematically, know that it is not possible to visualize something that is blasting human imagination, something that the human brain is principally refusing.

The massacre of SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ..., for instance, belongs also to a dimension that is blasting human imagination in its own way, like war, violence on children and women, and much more, is blasting the mind of those who are not affected, and those who are affected even more.

An artwork dealing with such exceptional human experience has to go other ways than repeating the horrifying curios we all see daily in the news on TV or in the newspaper. Some people are continuously consuming such visualized pornographic violence, which becomes a part of their perception of life. Others principally refuse the continuously escalating visualization of violence.

Massacres like SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ... have a very difficult position, since they stand in direct competition with other horrifying events, from the Past, as well as the Present. As long as they are in the news, people pay attention, but as soon as the matter is through it becomes more and more a problem to motivate people.

It is the best certainly to document such event scenarios the best way possible, at best by erecting types of multi-purpose documentation centres, so that they can be valued and interpreted by the coming generations from the distance of time and affection.

Artists like you mentioned above can help to give the public also another point of view, but like in the case of the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ..., time will show which is the best way to approach it, since whether artistic or not, it has to be one goal of all projects to initiate a better understanding for the dimensions (human, cultural etc) of such events. Like the photos documenting war in all parts of the world, the aesthetics of the images incorporate the big danger of romanticizing the situation. People who did not experience the situation of war, for instance, have generally no idea of it, and such aesthetical views give a completely wrong idea.

It makes a difference whether people see reproductions of horrifying curios of the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... or they visit Auschwitz or Majdanek, the same is true for SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War .... My personal position is, by presenting the audience a variety of projects, approaches, events etc. to motivate them to become active via reflecting, the projects I was creating stand in a common context.

If it was ever my intention to produce the impact of a shock, at all, then certainly not a “horror vacui” lasting just the second until it is replaced by a next following shock, but a long lasting shock through reflecting.

What do you think is the impact of those projects on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the same events you are focusing your attention on (tsunami, violence against women, holocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ...…) that have survived these events? Do you think forgettingAmnesia is the partial or total inability to recall past experiences; may be of organic or emotional origin (Sadock, 2003) ... these events would be better for them? And do you think that remembering violence can produce another kind of violence?

I never made a survey among the visitors who were victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., and what kind of impact my projects might have made on them. As art projects, all projects are made for the art community and this may include victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... potentially, as well. All these memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... projects you mention above, were active for a certain period, but are now completed and/or are not updated any longer.

All projects have a lot of good feedback; sometimes one gets the idea that deeply affected people write. Many of the projects are used for educational purposes, by universities or schools. The site statistics give evidence, but there is one special project that gives evidence of an enormous impact on survived victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...: “Women. Memory of Repressing in Argentina”.

The project is about the “disappeared” people in Argentina during the military dictatorships in the 1970s and 1980, which were leading a war against their own people by terrorizing the families of so-called different-minded people. Sons and daughters, but also husbands of families, were kidnapped and disappeared mostly without leaving any trace. From the 30,0000s of disappeared, just a few survived in the end. The remaining mothers and grandmothers, better known as Mothers of Plaza de Mayo, do not only belong to the surviving victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., but they eliminated also these dictatorships in the end through the ritualFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ... of weekly demonstrations that were going on until the day after the political system changed. I had the privilege to collaborate with one of these mothers who is also co-curator. Her daughter and son-in-law and her son were kidnapped; her son died, while the daughter survived and collaborated also in this and other projects.

Realized in 2004, this project had a strange deep impact on the Argentinian activists, i.e. the mothers and associated organisations, since it was created and produced outside of Argentina. In 2005, I was invited to Argentina to present my project at museums, cultural centres and universities, and I met many of the still living initiators of Mothers of Plaza de Mayo, which was an extraordinarily touching experience.

Even if it is not possible that an art project causes revolutionary changes, my project was understood as a signal for all those who never gave up fighting for the research and recovery in the matter of the disappeared, which resulted in the Argentinian president Kirchner ordering the exhumation of countless mass graves. Many of the disappeared could be identified by name meanwhile. The process of overcoming this national traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... after so many decades is still going on, and the horrible dimensions of this “state affair” becomes really visual over just these days. I am happy and most satisfied that my activities were able to have such a kind of impact on people, at all.

And do you think that remembering of violence can produce another violence?

It is said, that violence produces violence. And it is also known that people who became a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of violence can become violent as a direct result of the violence. Personally I doubt that just the remembering of violence can cause violence, and for a better understanding it is good to know, actually, what happens to a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of violence. Physical injuries can be cured, but psychological injuries are not visible. Healing a psychological traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... needs much more than the self-healing powers of the human vital system or therapy. If we understand that a psychological immune system exists as a genetic survival strategy, the destructive powers of a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... do not only destroy this immune system in part or as a whole, but the personal, social, cultural, political or religious circumstances or living conditions can potentially cause that victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to become a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... again and again, resulting even in the collapse of the immune system.

My personal experience of the described traumatization led to such a collapse in the form of a coma, but when it was over, I became aware that my psychological immune system did not exist any longer, since my vital systems identified words or reactions of other people as direct attacks I had to fight against.

One result was that my physical immune system went crazy, since it reacted against anything directly with high fever, and at the same time my direct re-“action” became very aggressive towards other people, basically verbally, since I do not tend to be physically aggressive, but also aggressive against myself.

In the first place, these “reactions” happened automatically, without a chance to take immediate influence; only afterwards I became aware what happened.

Of course, also the memory of violence plays a certain role. I hated the fact that there had been people who dared to take such a disastrous influence on my life and made me a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... while I had been never a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... before. Then I hated myself, my inability to understand properly what actually is going on inside of me. I hated my helplessness. I think such personal situations have the potential to drive people completely crazy, and depending on the individual personality, dealing with oneself and the situation can lead to general violent behaviour and the use of violence on other people, I am sure.

Do you think forgettingAmnesia is the partial or total inability to recall past experiences; may be of organic or emotional origin (Sadock, 2003) ... these events would be better for them?

It would be better if the traumatization would not have happened at all. But it did. It is just hypothetical to dream people could simply forget everything. Fortunately, there exists a kind of genetic emergency strategy, causing a kind of sleeping state of the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ....

The outside world might even get the idea as if the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... would be healed, but in fact it is just that the human vital system is developing individual survival strategies. From time to time, and mostly in the most inappropriate situations the memory is reactivated, showing a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... that the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is as fresh as on its first day.

In my case, the traumatic course of events caused a complete change and direction of my life, I would have never started working with electronic media and art the way I do, I am sure. I would never stand where I stand currently. ForgettingAmnesia is the partial or total inability to recall past experiences; may be of organic or emotional origin (Sadock, 2003) ... the events is not possible, but also not desirable, since they are part of my history. This fact is manifesting itself in my answers to your questions.

Do you think that victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the past have a special treatment, being institutionalized by history, than those of the present time in our culture?

My projects refer actually to different types of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., so it is really a question of which kind of victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... you mean. Perceiving the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as a person of relevance was a development of the 20th century, when the mass media came up and human rights entered the general awareness.

This caused also a kind of revision of ancient views on history. In the public perception, of course, such mass phenomena of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... like from World War I, World War II or the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... received a highly symbolical status, also because these events are and were the expression of unimaginable inhumanity. If certain groups of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are and were institutionalized it is/was not caused by history, but those people who deal with history.

It does not actually matter in which time or society people live. In contrast to the perpetrator, the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... who is always identified as being a loser gets hardly any sympathy. In the end, it is the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... himself who is to blame for his situation. But society separates also good from bad, privileged and less privileged victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., depending on their social, political, cultural or religious position and context.

There are dozens of reasons why people institutionalize victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... from the Past or Present, but since the view of history is changing from generation to generation, also the view of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and perpetrators and values generally change.