Participants: Mauricio Arango, Alejandro Duque, Stevan Vukovic, Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs

17:45 < Ana> yes and we are coming up with several conclusions…

17:45 < PeterFuchs> sigh, the spirit of spelling abandoned me

17:45 < Ana> nibbit might help

17:45 < PeterFuchs> victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... bot

17:46 < Ana> yes

17:46 < PeterFuchs> when I was doing a work on religion, my first qiestion was: does artifical intelligence has god?

17:46 < Ana> have you noticed that we have the most of columbian people on the project? three of them

17:46 < PeterFuchs> Does artificial intelligence could be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

17:47 < PeterFuchs> 2, yes, who is the 3rd?

17:47 < Ana> you mean a program that is always making you feeling guilty??

17:47 < Ana> check links

17:47 < nibbit> in both cases the event on the links

17:47 <@Ana> Navedeo Group: Who profits from death?

17:48 <@Ana> http://www.nadaveo.com/eng/index.html

17:48 <@PeterFuchs> no, an artificial intelligence - which has no human ties, can be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

17:48 <@Ana> also very interesting

17:48 <@Ana> which means I GO TO BOGOTA!

17:48 <@PeterFuchs> nice

17:50 <@Ana> only got to find how

17:50 < pike> AI has a God, I think - depends on how you define god ..

17:50 < pike> at least it has a creator

17:50 < pike> if it can be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., depends on your definition

17:50 <@PeterFuchs> the creator is not omnipotent and immortal

17:50 < nibbit> that sounds scarry field reporter and immortal

17:51 < pike> the defintion on this site is .. split up in several definition

17:51 <@Ana> god feels guilty for what he has done? or feels like he is not understood for centuries and feels alone?

17:51 < pike> the creator is omnipotent to the robot ..

17:51 < pike> but he's not immortal

17:51 <@Ana> but is victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... programable?

17:52 < pike> a robot can do posited role playingThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ... ofcourse, or have undesirable inferred psychological states

17:52 < pike> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/victim

17:52 < pike> but i can't really see how you could sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... it.

17:52 <@Ana> that would be interesting to see

17:53 < pike> nibbit can't do all that but HAL or ALICE might.

17:53 <@Ana> but what we could see last days is that there does not need to be a sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... behind the behaviour - htere are all this malingeringMalingering is the intentional faking of physical or psychological illness or symptoms ... (which shuld be consistent, to full the therapist) and psychosomatic role positioning

17:54 <@Ana> like if nibbit would make us feel guity for all we say

17:54 < pike> yes - only in religious context it refers to sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ...

17:54 < nibbit> it had in serbia a religious context it refers to sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... it is consistent that artist distinction

17:54 <@PeterFuchs> that is an interesting question

17:54 <@Ana> or the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...

17:55 <@Ana> i think it would full at least psychiatrists. but it needs to have an emotional intelligence that is how it works

17:56 < sofia> hi everyone!

17:57 <@Ana> should be this one http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/victim-role

17:57 <@Ana> hi sofia

17:57 < pike> hi sofia

17:58 <@Ana> Games people play - without computers

17:59 < pike> that depends - the robot can also a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... without playing the victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another .... it depends on your point of view.

17:59 <@VictimsSymptom> there you go

17:59 <@Ana> you kicked nibbit

17:59 <@Ana> yes but you cannot frustrate him

18:00 <@Ana> so it means that it would stay on the level of role-playing (no connection on reality whatsoever)

18:00 < pike> if he was AI, you could. but his frustration wouldnt look like a human's

18:00 <@PeterFuchs> take c3o as an example, it gets shot in the cloud city and being extremly reluctant to go into any more dangerous situation after that, for example, the palace of JAbba

18:01 <@PeterFuchs> where it gets extremly worried on the sight of the robot-torturing equipment

18:01 <@Ana> but you dont hurt intelligence but emotions especially selfesteem. otherwise you could hurt the psychopath, so if robot has AI he is more a psychopath

18:01 < pike> 'no connection to reality whatsoever' - thats interesting .. i'm afraid nibbit would think the same of us. but he thinks in a different protocol, ofcourse.

18:02 <@PeterFuchs> C3PO I mean

18:02 <@Ana> ha ha. you mean the world consistency… but am saying that the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... cannot be defined rationally but emotionally or physically - in terms of “being hurt”

18:03 <@Ana> or maybe i think it is like that because of Data from StarWars

18:03 < pike> there are different definitions of victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... on this site ..

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> of course:)

18:03 <@Ana> yes

18:03 <@Ana> so which one a robot can be?

18:03 < pike> as for traumatized - i think even an object can be traumatized, formally

18:03 <@Ana> how?

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> yeah, sounds reasonable

18:04 <@PeterFuchs> its got defected on its function by a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...

18:04 <@PeterFuchs> a dpropped mobile phone, for example

18:04 <@PeterFuchs> dropped*

18:04 <@Ana> a stressful event. you are going further than the vegan definition of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:05 < pike> ..and you could traumatize a robot like that - for example by overheating it

18:05 < pike> robots are not vegan

18:05 <@Ana> aha. but traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is related to the conscience what happens

18:05 <@Ana> and a complainable situation in which a robot would need a help

18:05 <@PeterFuchs> yes, they eat dead animals (oils), or electricity

18:06 <@Ana> aha i know what you mean tamagochi is a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:06 <@Ana> it makes you to help him all the time

18:06 <+aleij_> funny to think of a traumatized OS instead of a corrupted Operative System

18:06 <@Ana> he he… but OS should say - this huuuuuuuurts

18:06 < nibbit> this huuuuuuuurts

18:07 < pike>

18:07 <+aleij_> the hackers traumatized the pentagon server

18:07 <@Ana> yes.

18:07 < sofia> )))

18:07 <@Ana> but did it say so?

18:07 <+aleij_> seems nibbit felt it

18:07 <@Ana> seems so

18:07 * aleij_ punches with a sharp stik the belly of nibbit

18:08 <@Ana> so seems we have a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:09 <+aleij_> vegan and carnivoire

18:09 <@Ana> universal one… though it is actually reasonable today for the medicine you only need to check out symptoms and it reduces on sicknesses, before you had doctors which had old books and vague knowlege and experts in the field.

18:10 <@Ana> so it means that symptoms can be programmed, though in cases of mental and emotional states they tend to take the whole world inside…

18:11 <@Ana> i've tried these online medical software for a headache, i got one by answering all these amounts of symptoms he was reducing. like have you been recently in Africa? have you eaten a dry food?

18:12 <@Ana> there was about 500 questoins why head could hurt and at the end i was left with two possiblities

18:12 <@Ana> hi mauricio, what do you think - we are speaking of programming a robot to be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... is it possible?

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> which 2?

18:12 <+mauricio> Hi everybody

18:12 <@Ana> PMS and MS

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> Neo-liberal economy was one?

18:13 <@PeterFuchs> hi

18:13 <@Ana> he he more like communism

18:13 <+mauricio> I guess you can, but I think everything in its behavior would be prescribed

18:14 <@Ana> you mean each sentence. but it can be done generically, recognizing ceratin words… where it could make a point.

18:14 <@PeterFuchs> hehe, I never thought this robot issue wouléd go this far, but i like it

18:14 <@Ana> like shifting discourse - if one says Kosova, robot says SErbia and NATO

18:14 <@Ana> or vice versa…

18:14 <+mauricio> I think I arrived in the middle of your conversation

18:14 <@Ana> nibbit said it hurts him

18:15 <@Ana> but if robot can be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - it can produce identity art

18:15 <+mauricio> Yeah, that's it. But also you can program some behavior patterns. I know very little about this, but for something that has a very established symptomology I think you can program that kind of behavior

18:16 <+mauricio> an example can be the Sony pet dogs that came a few years ago.

18:16 <@Ana> well, it would be interesting to try, to make some cynical thing instead of robots that are only helping humans…

18:16 <+mauricio> they were programmed to act in a happy, cutesy way

18:17 < pike> remember the robot in the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy ..

18:17 <@Ana> but yeah the problem is if we are ethically responsible if we make a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... (consciously) even being a robot

18:17 <@PeterFuchs> yes, malvin, who knew too much

18:17 <@Ana> as maybe one day we discover the intelligence was something very simple we disregarded

18:17 < pike> well, if it was only programmed, it would be malingeringMalingering is the intentional faking of physical or psychological illness or symptoms ...

18:18 < pike> but above that, you can really overstress the thing to start showing erratic behaviour

18:18 <@Ana> but all lies come true after some time, so he would become a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... after repeating the situation

18:18 < pike> then it would really be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:18 <@Ana> and fall in the robotic depression

18:19 < pike> for example, some robots suffer from EMI interferance .. magnetic waves

18:19 <@Ana> whats that? a migrene?

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> good example :)

18:19 < pike> robot migraine

18:19 <@Ana> well that was one of symptoms i didn't have. migraine is a fictional symptom, psychosomatic…

18:20 <@Ana> or it is there to cover something else… which is supressed

18:21 < pike> is it always ? migraine also runs in families, doesn't it ?

18:21 <@Ana> but then pike it seems it is all the matter of the language, we are using a separate language for robots - we have split the universe and it comes we may think and feel the same (except for primary impulses which they do not have)

18:21 <@Ana> i understood it runs in bed only from movies?

18:22 < pike> i'm tempted to go into your 'except' clause - i won't

18:22 <@Ana> but robots dont go to toilet

18:22 < pike> we don't flush our caches

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> we are not doing that for a very long time either, Ana

18:23 <@Ana> aha you mean the garbage? all right so you think if we name things right way robots may as well be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:23 * PeterFuchs flushing his cache

18:24 < pike> it's hard to project the definition - robot 'live' in a different world. they 'interface' to us using language.

18:24 <@Ana> well, they are actually in all ontologies and epistemologies considered lower beings still

18:24 <@Ana> AL? but alive is what can feel pain (isnt that what stevan quoted couple of days ago and we were thinking if it was de sade?)

18:24 < nibbit> i was de sade?

18:25 <@Ana> no you were a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... nibbit

18:25 <@Ana> stevan, what do you think would be crucial if a robot was programmed to be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... he shows / understands?

18:26 <@Ana> it should be just another side of Eliza actually

18:26 < stevan> he would have to understand and show understanding of its own limitations

18:27 < stevan> of his own limitations

18:27 < pike> well, ALICE, actually. Eliza was programmed a bit differently, she's not AI.

18:27 <@Ana> good one!

18:27 <@Ana> well she served the argument

18:28 <@Ana> what alice does? takes you to wonderland?

18:28 <@Ana> i have a lemma for the stevans proposition: to understand own limitations and be able to do nothing about it

18:29 <@Ana> “Yes, i know about (… )but what can i do with it? it only makes me depressed”

18:30 < stevan> Hal 2000 for instance, denies that (his famous claim: “It can be attributed only to human error”

18:30 <@Ana> that would be a great answer on the cash machine

18:30 <@Ana> you put the card - ask the money - and you find out robot is depressed

18:31 < pike> Here are some pictures of ALICE's brain ..

18:31 < pike> http://www.alicebot.org/documentation/gallery/

18:31 <@Ana> feels exhausted, feels like xxx (counts) people were today and he feels abused

18:32 <@Ana> and his head hurts of counting money which appears very important to people…

18:32 <@PeterFuchs> this is what called overheating

18:32 <@PeterFuchs> stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ...

18:32 <@Ana> but he needs to count first own capabilities

18:33 <@Ana> A.L.I.C.E on what do you think of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...: Is there only one?

18:33 <@Ana> Eliza is more plausible…

18:34 <@Ana> Why do you tnink on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:35 <@Ana> but i could easily imagine that my computer says: can you please stop, i am really tired…

18:36 < pike> but it would have to be programmed, or wired, to go into certain role playing.

18:36 < pike> it might be efficient to program it like this, actually

18:36 < pike> Human: what do you think about victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... ?

18:36 < pike> God: Is that a rhetorical question?

18:36 < pike> http://alicebot.org/igod/

18:36 <@Ana> yes, or calculate own life (battery time, hardware parts) in terms of possible best use

18:37 <@Ana> when it reaches some level - command: start complaining and then you get alarm list; soft complaining, mild complaining, revolting, crying, shouting…

18:37 < pike> please, recharge me !!

18:38 <@Ana> yes. could you please recharge it is really terrible. and ending: You… you only think about yourself! you think i am your servant! you are so egocentric! and what i have been doing for you all these (count the date installation of OS)?

18:38 < nibbit> and ending: you..

18:39 < pike> (as a last breath .. very good)

18:39 <@Ana> that would be escalating emotion.

18:40 <@Ana> but it does not need to be a battery, but only counting the best use - misuse - defragmentation - antivirus - parallel processes… in terms of danger, exhaustion, viruses

18:41 <@Ana> like if you open 10 programs it says: You really want to kill me? I cant follow you! This is too much for me

18:41 < pike> I would buy that OS. TamagotchaOS.

18:42 <@Ana> me too. this way we got to take care of computers and we dont know what happens to them as they are like small babies unable to formulate the problem

18:43 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119794/ - this movie as basicly about a computer program, who becomes sentinet and wants to end its misery, and ask to programmer to kill itself.

18:43 <@Ana> Starting music programs: And now I will play some music for you and you will feel better. (latter on to use in the emotional blackmail: And I was so nice to you, playing music for you to make you relaxed..)

18:43 <@PeterFuchs> sounds to be a horrible movie, but in fact it is brilliant

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> one of the best CP movie ever

18:45 <@Ana> Existentialistic views, nihilist philosophy and emotionalist in terms of politics

18:45 < pike> Undoubtedly, as more AI technology is put in use, we will further learn about adapting it to human behavior, and to understand our very subtle thought and neurological events. AI will aid advances in implantable pain management devices as they become capable of assessing pain physiology, and then tailor a measured response to each type of pain ..

18:45 <@Ana> Sunday message: I have also rights to relax!

18:46 < pike> .. scary

18:46 <+aleij_> can one can traumatize a person abusing his/her synthetic perssona/avatar? in that line we can one day phps get to a real traumatized bot phps.. avatars are to be extensions for our feelings, there will be interfaces for feeding that path for shure.. (yes too much SL for me.. job responsabilites…arhhggg)

18:46 < nibbit> job responsabilites…arhhggg

18:46 <+aleij_> tx nibbit

18:46 <@Ana> ha ha

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> right on the point aleij_!

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> it is possible indeed!

18:47 <+aleij_> we could have had one of this chats in SL now that i think off it

18:47 <@Ana> how Peter?

18:47 <@Ana> lets try after the weekend

18:48 < stevan> there is a robot victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in SF literature

18:48 <@Ana> but i got the problem with brands! i always though my laptop has much better health care than i do

18:48 <@PeterFuchs> I have experienced it several times - punishment for missbeaviour, for example - the avatar is constatly abbused in the game for an (un)intentional action of the player

18:48 < stevan> Jander is his name

18:49 < stevan> in Isaac Asimov's,Robots of Dawn, first published in 1983, as part of his Robot series.

18:49 <@Ana> what happens to Jander?

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> oh, yes!

18:49 < stevan> his mind has been erased

18:49 < stevan> The robot's creator is first suspected as the

18:49 <@Ana> Alzheimer?

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> you are right, a very interesting book, indeed

18:49 < stevan> murderer because he has political motives.

18:50 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Robots_of_Dawn

18:50 < stevan> he is accused of tempted robocide

18:50 <@Ana> but what is erased, memory data or programs or OS?

18:50 < stevan> memory data

18:50 < stevan> he was zombified in fact

18:50 < stevan> robot zombie in outer space

18:51 <+aleij_> alzheimer…haha

18:51 <+aleij_> :)

18:51 <@Ana> refugee with PTSP

18:51 <@Ana> ups

18:51 <@Ana> well isnt that memory dump (Alszheimer?)?

18:51 <+aleij_> yes

18:51 <@PeterFuchs> it is

18:51 <+aleij_> sounds to funny related to a robot

18:51 <@Ana> then we should know how to heal humans?

18:52 <+aleij_> exactly

18:52 <+aleij_> the machine path

18:52 <@Ana> memory dup + zombie behaviour

18:52 <@Ana> yes! defragment the brain!

18:52 < nibbit> the brain!

18:52 <+aleij_> we are getting there..

18:52 <@Ana> nibbit wants the brain

18:53 <@Ana> and i was fascinated when my father told me to correct pixels when once my make up was spoiled

18:53 <+aleij_> about that, theres the movie scanner darkly

18:53 <+aleij_> the scrambler suit

18:54 <+aleij_> it changes constantly

18:54 <+aleij_> let me find a pic

18:54 <@Ana> but don't you really think its possible to make the mechanical analogy (or that would draw us to the electoshock therapy=

18:54 < pike> but such fictions are becoming reality ..

18:54 < pike> .. here's acompany manufacturing implementable pain management devices ..

18:54 < nibbit> here's acompany manufacturing implementable pain management devices .

18:54 <@Ana> to treat Alzheimer as a memory dump?

18:54 < pike> http://www.diaceph.com/AITechnology.htm

18:54 < pike> talking about using AI in their device

18:54 <+aleij_> http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&resnum=0&q=scramble%20suit&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> scanner darkly

18:55 <@Ana> didnt understand the scanner darkly. peter?

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> this topic is turing out to be really interesting!

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> thats a novel in which the suit if featured

18:56 <@Ana> what?

18:56 < nibbit> to support what?

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanner_darkly

18:56 <@Ana> nibbit helper

18:57 <@PeterFuchs> aleij: was talking about it

18:58 <@Ana> sounds like raymond smullyan stories - possible worlds theories, they are very SF stories but work as total universes in terms of deduction

18:58 <@Ana> check the first sentence of his bio! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_smullyan

18:59 <@Ana> Raymond Merrill Smullyan (born 1919) is an American mathematician, logician, philosopher, and magician.

18:59 <@Ana> nice combination?

18:59 <@PeterFuchs> usual

18:59 <@Ana> magician???

19:00 <@PeterFuchs> My math teacher was supposed to be the same :D

19:00 <@Ana> that somehow resembles the story of programmer:God

19:01 <@Ana> anyhow the story Is God a Taoist? by Smullyan is interesting - when a person dies faces a God with all prejudices from Earth and there is a communication on the basis: Who told you that to believe?

19:02 <@Ana> so - there is The Programmer - The Robot and a fake belief…

19:03 <@Ana> all in theory of computation anyhow

19:03 <@Ana> and the problem: who is the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of whom?

19:03 <@PeterFuchs> great text, thanks

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> fits my religion blog

19:04 <@Ana> which part?

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> Is God a Taoist? by Smullyan

19:05 <@PeterFuchs> I will dig into it

19:05 <+aleij_> being kicked out

19:05 <@Ana> well you will not know until you die, which is a second part of the Pascal's bet

19:05 <+aleij_> nice and well deserved weekend for all!

19:05 <@Ana> to you as well alejo!

19:05 <+aleij_> tx for this hectic week

19:05 <+aleij_> soon

19:05 <@Ana> thanks for your great artwork and paritcipation in discussions

19:06 <@Ana> Hey Peter, we havent done much with todays topic?

19:06 <@Ana> Why AFrica makes no news?

19:06 <@Ana> or it is - old news…

19:06 <@PeterFuchs> No Aids - do you know this graffiti?

19:07 <@Ana> no

19:07 <@Ana> but what would be news from Africa?

19:08 <@PeterFuchs> it is widespread all over the world and it means that the US government or whoever else invented AIDS to kill its enemies - like the balck people of Africa (so this is a standard conspiracy theory)

19:08 <@Ana> why would they want that?

19:08 <@PeterFuchs> what I want to get out of this, that we do not undestand africa, it seems to be a mess fo rour media view even

19:09 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, as it is a conspiration theory there are very little number of whys

19:09 < pike> In Mauricio's map, Africa does have news

19:09 < nibbit> in mauricio's map, africa does have answers

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> but those who suport it, says becouse THEY don't want them to come HERE

19:10 <@Ana> it does but the amount of people dying there and in UK is very very differnt

19:10 <@Ana> they could introduce more strict viza systems.

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> the main reason is, that there are no news agancies there any more

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> but seems one day when USA will be a poor country it would be gulty for all

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@PeterFuchs> therefore no more news

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <+mauricio> I think one reason the map shows news from africa is because i included some news sources from africa. but if we removed them and only rely on the news coming from more western agencies, then the picture is other. africa vanishes

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> news come only with presidnet wifes and queens

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@PeterFuchs> and for a standard journalist, it makes to muchh effort to undestand what is going on, so they do not bother with it

19:12 <@Ana> i thought so mauricio, as i never see news on africa if it is not some BlaBla day concert or a president's wife something

19:12 <@Ana> or Madonna

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> and they do not even put it among the other news items

19:13 <+mauricio> I think we could sit in front of a tv set for a week to watch cnn or any othe network news channel and would really see just a few minutes (if at all) dedicated to them

19:13 <@Ana> it is amazing that in Islamic world is so much reported because of the “new division” after the fall of socialism, but Africa is out as it ws never discovered continent

19:13 <@PeterFuchs> never forget the phrase which a member of Clinton adminsitration made on the Bosnian War: the people with un-pronouncable names are killing the ones with unundestable names somewhere

19:13 <+mauricio> at least here in the us, i think the islamic world became known only after 911.

19:13 <@Ana> which would actually mean that world map is not stabile any more, though last terra incognita disappeared a long time ago

19:13 < nibbit> just reading what makes you are interested the all newspaper there is not stabile any more, though it was that it in alejo's work better on the reason sezgin?

19:14 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, the Terra Incognia seems to be a shifting area

19:14 <@PeterFuchs> defined by the gaze of our information industry

19:15 <@Ana> well. but people here earn on anger of Americans. There is an artist that puts bin laden on boxes of matches, they are quite cheap and USA tourists buy them all all the time (no matter how much he has) to make them all burn. so he earns a lot

19:15 <@PeterFuchs> and, for example, thats where our culture might help

19:15 <@Ana> yes, it has to be cognitively defined (Terra Incognita)

19:15 <@Ana> keep controlling all parts of the planet? not to loose any part of it?

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> to expand the gaze

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> keep knowing the other…

19:16 <@Ana> yes. but i think technology can do that. it is really strange that with all satelites and survelliance possible there are no news from africa

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> no

19:17 <@Ana> i forgot to say - to our participants; you can freely comment and give your opinions

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> technology is only a tool, the human person behind is the main tool for the media

19:18 <@Ana> why no peter? you mean that the attention has always to be connected with the purpose, or we have drilled the attention so?

19:18 <@Ana> but lets first see the reason - for which reason people would need to know what happens in africa?

19:19 <@PeterFuchs> there are different attentions - the attention which you can get by a strong personal narrative is much different then one you get by showing a commonpalce of africa

19:19 < nibbit> and food is turing out to be a war and propaganda machines know that to me by a strong personal narrative is feeding back the power are actively working on the follow up questions at the premiere of leonardo www.mutamorphosis.org and moderating - repoting

19:19 <@Ana> to get scared? to feel like a human feeling an empathyAn individual's objective and insightful awareness of the feelings and behaviour of another person ... for a while? to conclude it is good where he was born, even if that is the eastern europe? to try doing something?

19:19 <+mauricio> I think the reason why africa is not in the news is the same reason why palestine is on the news

19:19 <@PeterFuchs> láter

19:19 <@PeterFuchs> later

19:19 <@Ana> i know. but how would you possibly make such a narrative

19:19 <@Ana> interests; you mean mauricio?

19:20 <@PeterFuchs> by introducing the concept of universalism

19:20 <+mauricio> yeah, interests, and who or what they are fighting

19:20 <@Ana> i know. we got to send some jews to deep african countries!

19:20 <+mauricio> so if palestines were not fighting israel but just among themselves, or another lesser known coutnry, they surely wouldn't be in the news as often

19:21 <@Ana> yes but war in ex yu was on news

19:21 <@Ana> and we were not fighting jews

19:22 <+mauricio> BUt you are europe

19:22 <@Ana> there is a relative distance.

19:22 <+mauricio> yeah, all these are speculations.

19:23 <@Ana> i know… it is very relative - the problem why. I concluded that with Tibet. Why Tibet that is really far away and is not fighting with Jews is so important in news?

19:23 <+mauricio> but that word is very key i think 'relative distance'

19:23 <@PeterFuchs> no matter if in Eurpoe or not, what matters if there is oli around! - joke

19:23 < KlausHu> Type your text here …cannot write,cannot see

19:23 <@PeterFuchs> oil*

19:23 <+mauricio> how close does the ue feel to africa?

19:24 < KlausHu> Now it works

19:24 <+mauricio> sorry, how close does the EU feel to africa?

19:24 <@PeterFuchs> far

19:24 <@Ana> i think it is the referring point of identity that is in question as well. like the bombing of Vukovar was not of importance of the world media, while dubrovnik (which was a tourist destination) was. the same way tibet is an european new age cultural point while africa is not

19:24 <@PeterFuchs> does not considers it to be a market even

19:24 < nibbit> does not considers it is more patriotic than many other one with the notion of whys

19:24 <@Ana> is there oil in Tibet?

19:25 <@PeterFuchs> there is much money on china, then any oil :D

19:25 <+mauricio> I don't think so. BUt Brad Pit was in a movie about tibet

19:25 < KlausHu> don´t think of new age. Ana. Yesterday there was a doc about Timothy Leary and the Maceyconference,

19:25 <@PeterFuchs> you are right about the Eurporan/western interests

19:25 <@Ana> yes. and some hollywood stars were against independec of kkosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... and they dont know where is that at all

19:26 < KlausHu> and much more illuminati stuff. So, I like the Dalai Lama

19:26 <@Ana> i think if someone would touch pyramides in Egypt it would be a problem while if ione would kill whole Egiptian population it wouldnt.

19:26 < KlausHu> hm

19:27 <@Ana> that is the Western materialism i see in news

19:28 < KlausHu> and psychedelic experiments versus modern networks?

19:28 < KlausHu> or is it the sam?

19:28 <@Ana> world press writes from politically filtered, materialistic points

19:28 <@Ana> KlausHu can you formulate the question again?

19:29 <@PeterFuchs> a narrative, which is based on misbeleiefs on a far exotic country vs. modern politics/economic interests

19:29 <@Ana> yes, that is what i wanted to say. the narrative is institutionalized in European art history

19:29 <@PeterFuchs> yes

19:29 <@Ana> therefore - it “belongs” to it.

19:29 < KlausHu> the lets pull out all filters. Art cannot be a servant. Now we shall be servants for finding the gap in global economy

19:30 <+mauricio> also, if you think who the empire (or empires) are, and what kind of interests they have (political, economic, geographical, etc.) then you start realizing why many places shine while others are invisible

19:30 <@Ana> or legitimizes.

19:30 <@PeterFuchs> true Mauriciio

19:30 <+mauricio> ..adn that extends to other realms, like the cultural one.

19:30 <@Ana> true. but the symbolic conquering is also strong (theft of the narrative) as is a materialistic point

19:31 < KlausHu> I will give a lecture in Singuyat ISEA about SPACE AND NARRATIVE IDENTITY. You may join

19:31 <@Ana> cultural invasion (good point!)

19:31 <@PeterFuchs> in this regard, the Pyramids are in fact not belong to Egypt, but the western world who enjoyes them

19:31 <@Ana> Great! we may see each other there.

19:31 < KlausHu> read Singapore. No invasion

19:31 <@Ana> yes. the same was with Dubrovnik: Worlds holidays destination

19:32 <@PeterFuchs> sadly

19:32 <@PeterFuchs> my 2nd home becoming a theme park

19:32 <+mauricio> How can we attend your lecture Klaus (other than flying to singapure)? is therea video or a paper we can watch/read?

19:32 < KlausHu> yah. i like holidays

19:32 <@Ana> and there is, except for some scultpures, rarely such connection with Europe

19:32 <@Ana> we go to singapur

19:33 <@Ana> but i was also thinking of dalai lama in terms of this topic. he is for me a bit passive agressive

19:33 <@Ana> but maybe all pacifists are…

19:34 <@PeterFuchs> I don't know anything about him, or his interests

19:34 < KlausHu> Mauricio: The paper will be online in July at www.space123.eu

19:34 <+mauricio> THank you. I'll save the link.

19:34 <@PeterFuchs> to be honest, I did not knew where Rwanda is exatly until the event there

19:35 <@Ana> i though Miliamar was a hotel brand with *

19:36 <@Ana> but what can one related to in Rwanda in terms of cultural invasion?

19:37 <@PeterFuchs> safari

19:37 <@PeterFuchs> lake victiria

19:37 <@PeterFuchs> lake victoria

19:37 < stevan> http://www.rwandatourism.com/

19:37 <@Ana> lions from zoo-s are the first immediate connection to that country?

19:37 < KlausHu> can we talk about tolerance and multiple perspectives, instead of invasion?

19:38 < stevan> home to the mountain gorillas

19:38 <@Ana> yes, but here we are speaking on possible reasons why media is not interesetd (does not find usefunction) trying to see what is the use funciton

19:39 <@Ana> Yes, then National Geographic should have some interest in reporting???

19:39 < KlausHu> cynism does not help

19:39 < nibbit> cynism does not finished to information on the designers of minesota press, 1997

19:40 <@Ana> cynism helps to realize the point why some places on the planet and its victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are reported and why others are not

19:40 < KlausHu> ??

19:40 <+mauricio> 'home to the mountain gorillas'… once i saw a speech by Romeo Dalaire. The canadian UN general who was there while everything was happenning. He said he was sure the world would have reacted faster if the attacks where against the gorillas of Rwanda

19:40 <@Ana> very simple, go to mauricio's work and you will see that there are more victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... reported in the UK, USA and Germany than in Africa.

19:41 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I also hear that one Mauricio

19:41 <+mauricio> it has to do with colors.

19:41 <@Ana> wow i didnt hear one on gorillaz

19:42 <@PeterFuchs> they are not considered to be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., thats why, they are only collateral damageCollateral damage is a term used by the U.S. military for unintended or incidental damage caused during a military operation ... of the african lifestyle - which is an outrageous point of view

19:42 <@Ana> but that is terrible, also fits the story on unclear language on the balkans and gorillaz in rounada - exotism

19:42 < nibbit> the hackers traumatized the event as oppossed to finish my article on africa if one on gorillaz in rounada - exotism

19:42 <@PeterFuchs> yes, exotism

19:42 <@Ana> aha - the real real Other to Europeans

19:43 <@Ana> to be more precise: to Westerners biggest invention: civilization

19:43 <@PeterFuchs> no, AK-47 and the Internet

19:43 < KlausHu> think that global economy is cynical, and so becomes the arteconomy.also hackers are part of the system

19:44 <@Ana> well if there would be no africa - europe might have been the one that invented civilisation

19:44 <@Ana> yes, it is cynical - but we need to be as well to see how it functions then

19:45 < KlausHu> Edward Said

19:45 <@Ana> yeah. but how to put these people INTO the discourse and make them important? closer, familiar..

19:46 < KlausHu> becoming THE OTHER to see? They are already important

19:46 <@Ana> to whom?

19:46 < nibbit> but is victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of whom?

19:46 <@PeterFuchs> show to the eurpoeans that they are not inferor, but the “other”

19:47 <@Ana> thats strange peter! i think for europeans message goes only via shops (chinese shops, tibetan shops…) unfortunately.

19:48 < KlausHu> Ana.for themselves. and europeans and americans should get rid of playing intellectual police

19:48 < KlausHu> shops dont interst me

19:48 <@Ana> klaus - they are not as they are obviously dying and getting no medicaments and help so it is a bit hypocritic to claim they are important

19:49 <@PeterFuchs> or via works of art - culture

19:49 <@Ana> well well utopian world

19:50 < KlausHu> why not joining the red cross(a cynical response). there is no utopy

19:51 <@Ana> what does it have to do with red cross when you are getting no news and things rely on that.

19:52 <@Ana> i know - the turn of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... point. someone must go to africa and become a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of africans.

19:52 <@PeterFuchs> even reading the wikipedia entries on this countries makes people dperessed, which is a pervert thing

19:53 < KlausHu> phoenix will land on mars at Saturday 26th. Global news, or local news are in the hand of the media.

19:53 <@Ana> news are media?

19:53 <@PeterFuchs> hmm, it seems we have to qoinmg to give a quick closing comment, running out of time soon!

19:54 <@PeterFuchs> going*

19:54 <@Ana> yes, and getting tired after five days. a bit… we concluded nothing on how to make news

19:54 <@Ana> i was thinkiing stevan would know the strategy : )

19:55 < KlausHu> I will not become an embedded artist

19:55 <@Ana> what we got, after these 7 days of IRC-ing is: a good conclusion i wuld say on victism computer, on narratives, on no news point, and ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... and computer games

19:56 < KlausHu> www.artnews.info/klaushu

19:56 <@PeterFuchs> I think we (at least me) came much closer of the undesrtanding of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... culture

19:57 <+mauricio> And now we have lots of links are resources and ideas to continue working

19:57 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I have saved plentyof links also

19:58 <@Ana> thats great! me too : ) and i have about 5 texts in sketch

19:58 <@PeterFuchs> 2 for me :)

19:58 <@PeterFuchs> at least

19:58 <@Ana> brainstorming sessions worked really well. pitty we couldnt do it in real, but i hope we will have that opportunity

19:59 <+mauricio> Yes, that would be great, but in case we cannot we should get back to this

19:59 <@Ana> So i got to thank to my great, great assistant Peter from whom i expect that text on PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... and computer games, to Mauricio who has produced a really good artwork that makes us aware of what is really going on with victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in news and Stevan who was great

19:59 <@PeterFuchs> sure. Thanks for everybody for participating, and also for Pike on the technical background. And for Labforculture.

19:59 <@Ana> and Pike who has programmed all of this! and has made a great imput to discussions along with Nibbit

20:00 <+mauricio> Yes, thanks to all of you for your continuous support all these last months.

20:00 <@PeterFuchs> and Ana, who organised all of this - we had really interesting talks

20:00 < KlausHu> peter fuchs: write down your dreams. no anorexia. mask of sanity. Georges Didi Huberman.the Salpetriere.

20:00 <@Ana> yes, we will get back - there are two open projects now Mauricio i will send you an email and hope we meet in real (Alejo is doing something with columbia next year)

20:00 <@Ana> and NIBBIT!

20:00 <@PeterFuchs> anorexia does not thaetens me :D

20:00 <+mauricio> Great, I'll wait to hear your news

20:01 <@Ana> you will like it : )

20:01 <@Ana> so thanks everyone (lab for culture especially)

20:02 <@Ana> and thanks KlausHu left : )

20:02 <@PeterFuchs> bye all, we had a great time together!

20:03 <@Ana> Bye, great time. send links to chat channels sometimes, if not Skype

20:03 <@PeterFuchs> skype mostly

20:03 * PeterFuchs running for dinner

20:04 <@Ana> yes. mauricio what is your skype?

20:04 <+mauricio> one second, let me find it

20:04 <@PeterFuchs> bye everybody

20:04 <@Ana> bye peter and you pass split i hope this siummer?

20:04 < stevan> bye

20:04 <@Ana> stevane ti si mogao i doci do mene?

20:04 < sofia> bye !!!!

20:04 <@Ana> by sofia

20:05 <+mauricio> Ok, now you're on my skype list.

20:05 <+mauricio> I have to leave now. Bye bye and hope we can talk soon.

20:06 <@Ana> yes. me too. bye! and thanks!

This was the last session of the VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...' Symptom online debate. The transcripts from all 7 days will remain online on the VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...' Symptom website: http://victims.labforculture.org