Participants: Alejandro Duque, Stevan Vukovic, Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs

18:29 <@Ana> ok. then todays topic is - is it possible to feel the pain of the other? according to philosophy no, according to some misterious disciplines it comes as if it is

18:29 <@Ana> dont put nibbit silent pike

18:29 < pike> he will respond now and then

18:29 <@Ana> alejo was working with PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... related transcripts or re-creations. how did you find that alejo?

18:30 < aleij_> ana, i was working and atthe same time living in a very heavy place

18:30 < aleij_> i got some nightmares i can tell

18:30 <@Ana> tina and tihana told me it looks pretty much like the state they see

18:30 <+aleij_> so i did felt it

18:30 <@Ana> vicarious traumaAs Way (2004) reviews, the term vicarious traumatisation was first used by McCann and Pearlman in 1990 to describe pervasive changes that occur within clinicians over time as a result of working with clients who have experienced sexual trauma ...?

18:31 <+aleij_> well, you know

18:31 <+aleij_> i grew up with real fears in colombia

18:31 <@Ana> it says almost like that anyone who deals with ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... is actually getting some traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., that traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is transmittable

18:31 <@Ana> i know

18:32 <@Ana> but that would make you more sensitive when working with such topics as well

18:32 <+aleij_> im sure,

18:32 <@Ana> what i wanted to know is if you felt http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/vicarious-trauma

18:33 <+aleij_> if i tell you yes, it will appear as if im victimizing myself

18:34 <+aleij_> though, i tell you yes

18:34 <+aleij_> but, as said before

18:34 <+aleij_> i have some phantoms that where sleeping

18:34 < nibbit> but, if we have some phantoms that where sleeping

18:34 <@Ana> compassion fatigue or secondary traumatic stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... as “the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change” …, countertransference, and burnout.

18:36 <@Ana> actually it is all therapist that are having other therapist behind, though i am again suspicious of the possiblity to transmitt the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... on the level of the message it only makes an emotional impact

18:36 <@Ana> to formulate, i mean

18:36 <@Ana> or the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is something you cannot formulate at all? stevan?

18:37 <+stevan> it can be formulated, but mainly from the outside

18:37 <+stevan> not from those who actually suffer from it

18:37 <@Ana> in terms of causes and effects, you mean?

18:38 <+stevan> it speaks through us

18:38 <+stevan> im many different ways

18:38 <+stevan> one has just to know how to read the signs of it

18:38 <@Ana> well, reading the definition clinicans have gave http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/trauma it refers to the body and psychological changes (what i would call an epi-phenomena to the event)

18:39 <@Ana> though there is no event in there, which means it can also be anything, or a personal invention

18:40 <+stevan> event?

18:40 <@Ana> or more clinically said: According to the DSM-IV Factitious DisorderAccording to the DSM-IV Factitious Disorder is a intentional production or feigning of physical or psychological signs or symptoms ... is a intentional production or feigning of physical or psychological signs or symptoms. The motivation for the behavior is to assume the sick role. External incentives for the behavior (such as economic gain, avoiding legal responsibility, or improving physical well-being, as in malingeringMalingeringMalingering is the intentional faking of physical or psychological illness or symptoms ... is the intentional faking of physical or psychological illness or symptoms …) are absent (Fle

18:40 <@Ana> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/factitious-disorder

18:41 <@Ana> event, as nothing has happened and there is the effect of traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...

18:41 <@Ana> and the second part It is the conscious awareness of the production of symptoms that differentiates factitious disorderAccording to the DSM-IV Factitious Disorder is a intentional production or feigning of physical or psychological signs or symptoms ... from the somatoform disordersSomatoform disorders have emotional origins and include the following symptoms: excessive or chronic pain, conversion symptoms, chronic and multiple symptoms without adequate explanation, complaints that do not improve despite the use of treatments that help most patients, and excessive concern with health or body appearance ...Somatoform disordersSomatoform disorders have emotional origins and include the following symptoms: excessive or chronic pain, conversion symptoms, chronic and multiple symptoms without adequate explanation, complaints that do not improve despite the use of treatments that help most patients, and excessive concern with health or body appearance ... have emotional origins and include the following symptoms: excessive or chronic pain, conversion symptoms, chronic and multiple symptoms without adequate explanation, complaints that do not improve despite the use of treatments that help most patients, and excessive concern with health or body app

18:43 <@Ana> like the analytical argument with the phantom arm or leg.. a leg is cut and there is a feeling of scratching in an unexisting leg… from there, can a pain be real, formulated and communicated?

18:44 <+aleij_> you know the technique to get rid of that scratching feeling?

18:44 < nibbit> sorry to get rid of that is what borders me..

18:44 <@Ana> in non-existing leg?

18:44 <+stevan> I am quite curious

18:44 <+aleij_> yes

18:45 <+aleij_> is with a mirror

18:45 <@Ana> well i am curious as well

18:45 <+aleij_> so the person can scratch with his real hand

18:45 <+aleij_> and see it as if he is using the lost one

18:45 <@Ana> no, i am actually thinking of faking PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ..., how many of people are actually faking it as they are having it and how many are faking while they dont know they are faking?

18:46 <@Ana> you got to scratch with non-existing hand, it is the Second world reality

18:46 <+stevan> those who don't have it after being in traumatic situations, such as at the frontline are really psychos

18:47 <@Ana> yes, psychos that are trying to behave as normal

18:47 <@Ana> as saying they feel sorry for what they have done and they have nightmares but actually they feel nothing

18:48 <@Ana> and get their war pension, appartement and a discount on cars

18:48 <@Ana> do you have these benefits for PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... in Serbia?

18:48 <+stevan> no, none cares of them

18:48 < nibbit> no, none cares of them now

18:48 <+stevan> thanks for correcting

18:48 <@Ana> nibbit thinks someone must have taken care before

18:49 <@Ana> but it is a high rate of suicidal population. they don't want to put them off the street?

18:49 <+stevan> well, Serbia was never offically in war, so these people are not to have PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

18:49 <@Ana> thats what i thought, someone mentioned that couple of days ago

18:50 <@Ana> but there should be more of them as there wer 4 wars?

18:50 <@Ana> it is like with the G word

18:50 <+stevan> yes, but they are not to claim they have fought those wars

18:50 <+aleij_> thats should be tha case in colombia after 45 years of civil war, not to mention the spanish invasion..

18:51 <+aleij_> the goverment denies theres a war

18:51 <@Ana> they cannot mention their participation?

18:51 <+stevan> no

18:51 <@Ana> but psychiatry as far as i understood doesn't look to people as victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... or agressors it takes them both as patients

18:51 <@Ana> which means that the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is all around

18:52 <@Ana> and in columbia there are PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...s, of course?

18:52 <+aleij_> is all around

18:53 <@Ana> it is really insane as you get totally ill population if you don't segregate the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... and start healing it

18:53 <+aleij_> everyone lives on it

18:53 <@Ana> well what i learned with traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is it behaves on the law of the connected dishes - it never dissapears

18:54 <+aleij_> the insteresting situation there is checking how people lives denying it

18:54 <@Ana> or it is just pushed and forwarded in time or to someone else

18:54 <+aleij_> “there wont be another way to continue living”

18:54 <+aleij_> some will say

18:54 <+aleij_> i need to change place, i'm being kicked out of the building

18:54 <+aleij_> bb in 5min

18:55 <+stevan> i have found an interesting line in Elaine Scarry” “Body in Pain”

18:55 < nibbit> yes, tihana, actually that it always ends up in some kind of artworks in the region, which fullifies this is really interesting line in elaine scarry body app

18:55 <+stevan> related to what you have been stating before, Ana

18:55 <@Ana> terryifing as they keep and and then reformulate it in something else… i've learned the difference with traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... and happines - happynes can be spent easily but the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... stays around and travels like that in future or other place

18:55 <@Ana> yes. what did she say?

18:55 <+stevan> to have pain is to have certainty; while to hear about pain is to have doubt

18:56 <@Ana> interesting… well pain was one of analytical arguments of existence, i think descartes was first using it, but when ti turned out you can have pain on cut leg it was a bit also falling under scepticism

18:57 <@Ana> i feel pain - therefore i am, sounds a bit like vegan definition of universe : )

18:57 <+stevan> feeling a loss after separation of any kind is as real as the actual separation

18:57 <+stevan> one leg less, so what?

18:58 <@Ana> yes, but when the leg that doesnt exist is scratching thats really an invasion of fantasms

18:58 <@Ana> or a melancholia hm?

18:58 <+stevan> well, our idea that we are complete persons in any manner is a phantasm

18:59 <@Ana> true. if we would be complete we would not have a need to move

18:59 <+stevan> it just shows more evidently when we start falling aparat, or when we are torn apart by some other cause

19:00 <@Ana> but what would you say about the quoted paragraph? there is something of the existencialism there

19:00 <+stevan> so, that is not just getting back to Descartes, but to Plato, his myth that we once were complete persons, before getting split, when Eros had to start moving us to get back

19:00 <@Ana> and queerness as well sado-masochismSexual masochism and sexual sadism have a great deal in common besides the experience of pain during the sex act. Both conditions begin in childhood; both are usually chronic ...

19:00 <+stevan> sure

19:00 <+stevan> and liberalism as well

19:01 <@Ana> i could easily imagine someone burning own skin with cigarettes and saying it

19:01 <@Ana> in which sense liberalism?

19:01 <+stevan> Judith Sklar's

19:01 <+stevan> or Richard Rorty's

19:01 <@Ana> analyitical one

19:01 <@Ana> well that is the point of the analytical argument

19:02 <+stevan> Rorty's quote

19:02 <+stevan> “pain is non-linguistic: It is what we human beings have that ties

19:02 <+stevan> us to the non-language-using beasts. So victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of cruelty, people who are

19:02 <+stevan> suffering, do not have much in the way of a language. That is why there is no

19:02 <+stevan> such things as the voice of the oppressed or the language of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ....

19:02 <+stevan> The language the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... once used i\

19:02 <+stevan> s not working anymore, and they are suffering

19:02 <+stevan> too much to put new words together. So the job of purting their situation into

19:02 <+stevan> language is going to have to be done for them by somebody else.

19:03 <+stevan> The liberal novelist, poet, or journalist is good at that. The liberal theorist usually is not.”

19:03 <@Ana> yes but what we have learned on the agressor is not they are not having a language but they must not say what they have done

19:03 <@Ana> and true (as it is in the video by Taquini really shown - the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... disconnects randomly from own traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...)

19:04 <+stevan> the agressors are usually speaking in the name of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:04 <@Ana> which leads us to the pont that the only person in victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... narrative who can tell the story is THE HERO who is there to interpret it

19:04 < nibbit> which leads us to soldiers, they are referring to the example is an illustration

19:04 <@Ana> how are agressors speaking in the name of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...? they must not say they have been agressors

19:04 < nibbit> his full name of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

19:04 <+stevan> in a partonizing way

19:05 <+stevan> first bomb (peacemaking)

19:05 <@Ana> well if they are alive

19:05 < nibbit> if they are alive

19:05 <+stevan> then reconstuct what they have destroyed (peacekeeping)

19:05 <@Ana> but you will never hear on dead iraqi people

19:06 <@Ana> yes, but that is the inversion of roles victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - agressor, not the original speech of the agr3esor

19:06 <@Ana> there is no “i have murdered this people”

19:06 <+stevan> well, how about the fraze “humanitarian bombing”

19:06 <@Ana> hardly any literature from that point except gustave mirbeau who was writing on sacricity of murders

19:07 <+stevan> bombing is always to save someone from someone

19:07 <@Ana> yes, but that is the inversion - victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... roles and heroes

19:07 < nibbit> the positive thing is subversive , or feigning of roles and heroes

19:07 <@Ana> still no agressor i see there

19:07 <@Ana> i doubt that even on the court in den haag someone has said - yes, i admitt i have done it

19:08 <@Ana> as the agressor is not obliged on the testimony

19:09 <+aleij_> thats the main point in the commisions for truth and reconciliation

19:09 <+aleij_> but none of the paramilitares in colombia admitted much

19:09 <+stevan> but to get back to the discourse of the aggressor who claims not to be the murderer - one is never a murderer formally at least, if one did stick to the Standard Operting Procedures

19:09 <+stevan> even if one did kill

19:09 <@Ana> ups there is one i found http://www.fokus.ba/vidi.php?vijest=11493 he confessed killing 19 children

19:10 <+stevan> civillians, for instance, clearing the ground

19:10 <@Ana> which procedures?

19:10 <@Ana> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_operating_procedure

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> that is something like a grammar of murdering?

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... < nibbit> i hope you all enjoyed the dabate, i can also in something like a grammar of murdering?

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> the problem here is it defines the conflict in rational terms, while it is totally irrational

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <+stevan> yes, if one did follow those procedures, he is not to be claimed quilty, but those who have been his superior officers

19:12 <@Ana> ultimately irrational

19:12 < pike> and as i read wikipedia, these SOPs are not 'standard' ?

19:12 <@Ana> distribution of responsiblity via rationalisation hm

19:13 <+stevan> to cover up things

19:13 <@Ana> pike how do you see it not standard?

19:13 < pike> you can make them up on the fly …

19:13 <@Ana> meaning? they can be additionally applied as an interpretation?

19:14 < pike> In cases where the unit's SOPs cover the same topical area as doctrine generated by the unit's parent service, the SOP may be considered to be the unit's interpretation of the official doctrine.

19:14 < pike> i'm not sure if i understand that correctly - but it means you can afterwards say - well, that was my interpretation ..

19:14 <+aleij_> “He alleged that the bombing, which he described as a symbolic attack, was in retaliation for the involvement of two British citizens in a rocket attack on a military airbase in Pretoria in 1981.”

19:14 <@Ana> of course as it is rationalisation (interpretation) of irrational (war)

19:15 <@Ana> well what alejo wrote sounds like an academic text explanation - no sense

19:15 <+aleij_> thats from a policeman confession at the TRC..

19:16 <@Ana> it is obvious it was written by the military agency this whole SOP as it really makes them less responsible. though also medical ones are written like that (the drug and medicaments additions -of misuse and counter-effects)

19:18 <@Ana> well thinking also military strategies are never written for warmaking but peacekeeping

19:18 < nibbit> yes, next time for warmaking but unfortunately they couldn't

19:18 <+stevan> Eichmann attempted to follow the spirit of the laws he carried out, as if the legislator himself would approve. In Kant's formulation of the

19:18 <@Ana> haha this time peacekeeping nibbit?

19:18 <+stevan> categorical imperative, the legislator is the moral self, and all men are legislators; in Eichmann's formulation, the legislator was Adolf Hitler

19:18 < nibbit> categorical imperative, the legislator is contemporary

19:18 <+stevan> Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil

19:19 <+stevan> by Hannah Arendt

19:19 < pike> it sounds more sensible then following the formulation of moral. too bad it is eichmann.

19:19 <@Ana> yes, but Kant's imperative is - do not wish to do anything to others what you would not like to be done to yourself which is quite different than Eichmann was interpreting. or maybe, he never read Kant

19:20 <+stevan> that is Kant avec Sade

19:20 <@Ana> well i think he has only referred to confuse as in many academic texts

19:20 <@Ana> think so?

19:20 <@Ana> * “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.” [1]

19:20 <+stevan> he was just a good mamma's soldier

19:21 <+stevan> well, any law can be univesalised quite easily

19:21 <@Ana> yes even kill the jews?

19:21 <+stevan> it is only the liberals who believe in the golder rule

19:21 <@Ana> but i am thinking how this law or reciprocity which has actually a REVENGEFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... in its basis, though written in positive way can reflect de sade?

19:22 <@Ana> somehow it seems to me that what sadist wants he would not like to the masochist and vice versa

19:22 <@Ana> “Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end.”[2]

19:22 <+stevan> yes, killing the jews can be universalised if one dehumanizes them first

19:22 <+stevan> and that is what Nazi propaganda was doing

19:22 < nibbit> in many sense of revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... be also military strategies are having it and propaganda was doing

19:23 <@Ana> i know

19:24 <@Ana> One of the first major challenges to Kant's reasoning came from the Swiss philosopher Benjamin Constant, who asserted that since truth telling must be universal, according to Kant's theories, one must (if asked) tell a known murderer the location of his prey. This challenge occurred while Kant was still alive, and his response was the essay On a Supposed Right to Tell Lies from Benevolent Motives (sometimes translated On a Supposed Right to Lie because of Philanth

19:25 <@Ana> which means - that is where the lack of responsibility comes especially in the army and from here it is easy to interpret Eichmann

19:25 <@Ana> obeying the law instead of responsibility

19:25 <+stevan> first challenges to Kant came from Schiller

19:26 <@Ana> which ones?

19:27 <+stevan> of neglecting the role of fellings and putting abstract notion of dutu forward

19:27 <@Ana> that is the argument of the mother that saves first own kids then kids of others?

19:27 <@Ana> there is something really ecconomistic in the ethics of reciprocity

19:28 <@Ana> i mean very low…

19:29 <@Ana> though the revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... effect, i was today writing something on that, is more troublesome if institutionalised and depersonalized

19:31 <@Ana> i mean - how can a murder “cost” 3 years of prison and one bullet which is 1 €, i still don't understand

19:31 < nibbit> thats what i thought, someone mentioned that a murder cost 3 years of prison and still growing

19:31 <@Ana> nibbit has growing murders

19:32 <@Ana> are we getting a vicaroius traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...? alejo? stevan?

19:33 <+aleij_> ths tension of law and ethics gets me blown

19:34 <+aleij_> law dominates all this discourses

19:34 <+stevan> not for Schiller, he is for 'sentimental education'

19:34 <+stevan> that one gets from the cultural field

19:34 <+stevan> and is linked to a specific situation

19:35 <+stevan> and a specific psychology

19:35 <+aleij_> ok

19:35 <@Ana> well i am also in favor of emotional one and rather the personal revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... then the institutional war

19:36 <+aleij_> i need to read on those ideas

19:36 <@Ana> primary state of society

19:36 <@Ana> which ones?

19:36 < nibbit> which ones?

19:37 <+aleij_> the ones that refer more the the emotional or sentimental education, though that sounds weird

19:37 < nibbit> not clinical ones that refer more tend to find a name, or population all are; starting with anyone which would not so these sound like specter, noone dared to fight for the croats, then bosnians, and relatives form hollywood

19:37 <@Ana> what borders me is the channalisation of the need to revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... (which frustrates) into a bigger institution that then (in your name) makes more of damage

19:37 <@Ana> noone dared to fight for the croats, then bosnians, and relatives form hollywood

19:37 <@Ana> dramma : )

19:38 <+aleij_> as i said few days ago in my sentimental education i can tell i wanted a mini uzi the second after someone was shooting at me

19:38 <+aleij_> thats all i can tell

19:38 <@Ana> thats healthy feeling we told you. but it would be illegal

19:38 <+aleij_> not in that country

19:38 <+stevan> but we have to have those thoughts

19:38 <@Ana> and may cost you more than you think…

19:38 <+stevan> all of us are murders in our uncoscious

19:38 <+aleij_> thats another issue

19:39 <@Ana> yes, we have to. it is the only way to heal from traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., and finally that makes art ina way

19:39 <+stevan> the difference is in who really does kill, and who does not

19:40 <+aleij_> sometimes that depends on luck and good skills

19:40 <@Ana> yes, but the revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... and anger are seen as barbaric in most of societies not the anti-stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... coping therapies

19:40 <@Ana> and it can be channalised many ways i think the anger

19:41 <@Ana> there is a saying here (from sailors); when the wind blows to your back you turn the sailing wing the opposite way and you travel the fastest way. and its true

19:42 <@Ana> lots of energy which may be creative as well

19:42 <+stevan> so, instead of becming a murderer, one becomes an artist, that is what some art therapists would say

19:43 <@Ana> i think so - but i haven't seen yet paintings in which someone was killing and torturing someone one hated

19:43 <@Ana> which is really strange… as there is so much of art therapists around

19:44 <+aleij_> kids can paint that

19:44 <+aleij_> you know

19:44 <@Ana> still there are more of - how we were tortured (catholic paintings, Guernica…)

19:45 <@Ana> yes, but once you grow up you never make “ritualFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ... murders” on the paper

19:45 <@Ana> and you dont exterminate people from photo books

19:45 <+aleij_> si

19:45 < nibbit> si jos ovde , and how many are actually faking it has been listening here

19:45 <@Ana> nibbit speaks serbian

19:46 <@Ana> but maybe today psychiatrists would claim you have a morbid personality if you were painting the slow death and tortureTorture represents the most severe form of trauma perpetrated by one human on another (Silove, 1996) ... of someone you hated

19:46 <@Ana> it is an era of “penso positivo” (which is unfortunately only a pop song)

19:48 <+stevan> I like one moment from the film, Gori Vatra, titled in English as “Fuse”, directed by Pjer Zalica in 2003, which presents us

19:48 <+stevan> with an ironic story of the war-torn village of Tesanj, in Bosnia, that is, after the war, to be visited by President Clinton

19:48 <+stevan> will visit Tesanj, so it has to be made safe, clean and nice - it transforms itself from by integrating Serbians into the

19:49 <+stevan> neighborhoods, getting rid of weappons that lie in every basement, and removing hookers from the streets. It is a Muslim

19:49 <+stevan> populated town, and, to show their political correctness, they have to show how they let the Serbs get back to their houses

19:49 <+stevan> The Serbs do want to do that, but only temporarily, and for big money.At the crucial moment, the guy who is paying the Serbs

19:49 <+stevan> to play the refugees getting back to their homes says to the leader of the Serbian population:

19:49 <+stevan> 00:52:11 in the film “Obrad, you're a real asshole. I'm glad we had a war.”

19:49 < nibbit> i'm glad we would move to some phantoms that it lurks around and travels like that in what other ways if manifests?

19:50 <+stevan> “Me, to”, says Obrad

19:50 <@Ana> thats the ecconomy. i've seen the movie it has become a turbo folk hit

19:51 <+aleij_> 1. Pjer Zalica - Gori vatra AKA Fuse (2003) [1 seeders] [0 leechers] http://karagarga.net/details.php?id=28374

19:51 <+stevan> yes, it is a bad film, because it urges to be as populist as possible, but it shows how most of the ordinary people feell about this forced reconcilliation

19:51 <@Ana> but it turned out, idd you see this recent case of bank robbing in Split, Stevan? it was sebian mafia and PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... war veterans from croatia

19:52 <@Ana> http://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/crna-kronika/pljacka-poste-hrvati-odradili-posao-srbima-za-10-posto-plijena.html

19:52 <+stevan> 'brothers in arms' from different sides, but they share the war experience that is to be denied by the society

19:53 <@Ana> well HVIDRA is not denied, it is the matter of honor. couple of days ago a new mercedes was blown in the air as another guy than the one that was inside the robbery has claimed that one is a fake PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... and has never been into the war. but he has not claimed he was not to work iwth serbian mafia

19:54 <@Ana> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTontRlgx38 it is about this one

19:55 <@Ana> sorry alejo itr is only in croatian. the story is amazing - they have robbed the post office - the largest robbery in the country ever

19:55 <@Ana> and what this guy said: it is not the probelm he has robbed the bank that is his own responsiblity, but he is faking PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

19:55 < nibbit> personaly talk about reconcilliation in this with the case of holocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ..., and then serbs, each of the sides taking his own responsiblity, but he is many other testemonies now

19:58 <+aleij_> fuck what a crazy story.. i save the youtube link for ltr, i cant see youtube from here :S

19:59 <@Ana> yes, that is what you get in the PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... aware society. i am sick therefore i am

19:59 <+aleij_> yesterday in colombia there was a guy with a grenade in his hand on a bank office, til there all is normal

19:59 <+aleij_> problem is, it was intervied life on TV

19:59 <+aleij_> live

19:59 <@Ana> 5 minutes of TV life

20:00 <+aleij_> like 15min or more

20:00 <+aleij_> til they manage to control him

20:00 <@Ana> we had the prison upheaval two days ago and after getting on TV they calmed down

20:00 <@Ana> Alejo i think both of us are watching news too much

20:01 <+stevan> that is all over

20:01 <+aleij_> the controversy of how media makes an apology of the criminal

20:01 <+stevan> the Hi Mom syndrom

20:01 <+stevan> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065836/

20:01 <@Ana> nice name for the syndrom. would be a good show

20:02 <+stevan> well, Brian De Palma is a good writer, and director as well

20:02 < nibbit> well, brian de palma is a blogger, the one

20:03 <@Ana> didnt know for his blog

20:04 <@Ana> wow. 8:04 i got to go and i am leaving you the channel (its open till 21:00)

20:04 <@Ana> thanks for nice time, again and new links and knowledge

20:04 <@Ana> and interesting ideas

20:05 <+stevan> see you tomorrow

20:05 <@Ana> see you tomorrow we close with new ideas for projects

Tomorrow at 10:00 you can ask more questions regarding this topic. The next official debate starts at 18:00 tomorrow. All times GMT+2