Participants: Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs, Alejandro Duque

09:58 < Ana> hi everyone,

09:59 < Ana> i just checked the link http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/21/virtual-iraq-for-tra.html

10:00 <@PeterFuchs> hi

10:01 < Ana> peter have you thought of writing a text on VR and PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...?

10:01 <@PeterFuchs> not a bad idea

10:02 < Ana> i think you collected a nice link collection and you can still use the presence of tina and tihana and their suggestions

10:03 < Ana> and also you have alejo's “simulation” there and andreja's stats

10:03 <@PeterFuchs> yes

10:03 <@PeterFuchs> there are a number of quite important games on this regard

10:04 < Ana> if so - we have an ongoing call http://www.leonardo.info/isast/journal/calls/artandwar.html

10:04 < Ana> in terms of print, and of course we can put it on the page of symptoms

10:05 <@PeterFuchs> once, I was talking with Armenian peackeepers, and when they learned I am deaing with games, they become immediety very excited

10:06 <@PeterFuchs> and told me in the Caucasus region computer games are ultimte tools or reconciladation

10:06 < Ana> well a reference of all games, first of all, to the war, is important

10:06 < Ana> addrenaline addiction cortisol

10:06 <@PeterFuchs> since soldiers=ex-soldiers and even young people are playing them together

10:07 <@PeterFuchs> did you managed to read my short text on this?

10:08 <@PeterFuchs> I mean the one I sent few days ago

10:09 < Ana> not yet, i am going to read it after this sess.

10:10 <@PeterFuchs> ok

10:11 < myr> Type your text here …i m here

10:11 < myr> again

10:11 < myr> anybody out there

10:11 <@PeterFuchs> hi

10:11 < myr> ho

10:11 < myr> hi

10:11 <@PeterFuchs> Ana is reading some references maybe

10:12 < myr> ok

10:12 <@PeterFuchs> but around

10:12 < Ana> yes, we are here, trying to keep up with text reference records.

10:12 < myr> let s introduce each other

10:12 < myr> what r text reference records

10:12 < Ana> about games and ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

10:12 < myr> i just wanted to talk about something

10:12 < myr> about art in algeria

10:13 < Ana> yes

10:13 < myr> i went there a few weeks ago

10:13 < myr> and met up with the director of the fine arts school of algiers

10:13 < myr> found out that there were very little students going

10:14 < myr> because they had been terrorized …in 1994 the islamic fundamentalists terrorists went into the school

10:14 < myr> and assasinated the art director and his 19 year old son in front of all the other students in an art classroom

10:15 < myr> they knocked over a lot of nude statues

10:15 <@PeterFuchs> do you have any text on this? As I am collecting evidence of direct actions against artist all over the world?

10:15 < Ana> iconoclasm.

10:15 < myr> and basically it is very hard for artists to get training, the teachers are paid really low

10:16 < myr> no, but i can find it for you Peter

10:16 < myr> what is iconoclasm

10:16 < Ana> another point - why always it is killing schoolkids that makes the dictatorships visible (we have a song we had to learn in school on the murder of kids in school)

10:16 <@PeterFuchs> thanks

10:16 < Ana> physical destruction of objects with the goal to attack their meaning

10:17 < myr> how old were you when they had you learn the song

10:17 < myr> yeah well they also physically destroyed 2 humans

10:17 < Ana> primary school. something like 7.

10:17 < myr> Peter give me your email and i will do my best to send you stuff

10:17 < myr> have you thought of doing an art installation about that song

10:18 < Ana> i will try to translate it to you:

10:18 < myr> have you seen kids killed at your school?

10:18 < Ana> it was in the land of paesants on the hilly balkans,

10:18 < Ana> in the same day a group of pupils in the school was murdered

10:18 < myr> you make it sound romantic

10:18 < Ana> they were born at the same day, school days were the same for them

10:19 < Ana> they were taken to to the same places and got vaccinated from the same disieases

10:19 < Ana> and they were murdered in the same day

10:19 < myr> sorry i did not mean u made the killing sound romantic i meant the hills

10:19 < myr> that is horrible

10:19 < aleij_> morning all

10:19 <@PeterFuchs> morning

10:19 < myr> how old were they

10:19 < Ana> its quite long…

10:19 < myr> good morning

10:20 < Ana> yes, and we had to learn it as kids

10:20 < Ana> hi alejo

10:20 < Ana> we are speaking of murders in schools and songs about that

10:21 < myr> well i can understand why you are passionate about this project ana

10:21 < Ana> we had to learn a song about mass murder of kids in the school when we were 7 years old

10:21 < myr> what was the idea behind it?

10:21 <@PeterFuchs> this happened during the 2nd WW

10:21 < Ana> what stevan told - when we were 6 we had to say ” we would give up our lives for the homeland ”

10:21 < Ana> yes, but the horror imput in kids is terrible?

10:22 < myr> wow, programmable machines

10:22 < myr> who was the president back then who allowed taht shit

10:22 < Ana> Tito

10:22 < myr> oh

10:22 < Ana> we was actually a kind dictator

10:22 < myr> you are educating me

10:23 < myr> so how did you feel

10:23 < Ana> nothing, actually… the only thing i felt terrible is the movie we had to watch where there were cutting toes to people in some partisan movie. thats terrible

10:24 <@PeterFuchs> Tito Jugoslavia built up a identity on the horros (truma) of the WW2, the reasons behind this is quite complex

10:24 < Ana> when i hear the name of that movie because of that scene i feel a horror

10:24 <@PeterFuchs> my mother had to shoot rifles every year, to be a good partisan if…

10:24 < myr> how old were you when they made you swallow that

10:25 <@PeterFuchs> from 5 I think

10:25 < Ana> 6 or 7 years old

10:25 < myr> yuck

10:25 < myr> that is unbeleivable

10:25 <@PeterFuchs> right when the child enters the “official” education

10:25 < myr> was that only in ex yougoslavia

10:25 < Ana> yes, when they talk to you on wars all the time then wars happen

10:25 < myr> or all of the balkans

10:26 < myr> of course

10:26 <@PeterFuchs> but until that you were very well aquitaned by the narrative and retorics of this “colt”

10:26 < Ana> i think it was even more radical in other countries, belonging to the eastern block

10:26 < myr> we create with our minds the reality

10:26 <@PeterFuchs> HUngary was light on this issue

10:26 <@PeterFuchs> we only had to throw fake granades once every year

10:26 < Ana> yes, actually i had to shoot for the first time when i was 10 - it was an official study subject in the primary school ONO and DSZ

10:27 <@PeterFuchs> and it was taken very lightly

10:27 <@PeterFuchs> Jogoslavia was hardcore

10:27 < Ana> a rifle : ) but i liked it… i still keep those notebooks where i was learning on bombs with my childish handwriting,

10:27 < Ana> but i think if i would try to bring them to USA today i would be arrested

10:27 < myr> that is SURREAL

10:28 < myr> that s right honey

10:28 < Ana> actually it was my favorite subject (when i look back, though then it was insane)

10:28 < myr> have you ever thought of making a diary film both of you about your childhood memories

10:28 < Ana> no, everyone has similar memories around

10:28 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, I was learnt how to make improvised bombs - but form a different reason as my family was against Tito dictatorship (they were jailed several times)

10:28 < myr> well you liked the beauty of shooting

10:28 < myr> which is a zen thing , to focus on a point and find it

10:28 <@PeterFuchs> yes, a whole generation

10:29 <@PeterFuchs> to kill the nazis!

10:29 < Ana> well there is something nice when you learn how to defend yourself, it was called OPCENARODNA OBRANA AND DRUSTVENA SAMOZASTITA - total peples defence and social selfdefence

10:29 < Ana> you know you cannot be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

10:29 < myr> yes maybe everybody has simmilar memories around the eastern block of Jugoslavia but french and algerian and americans and turks have no idea

10:30 < Ana> well i was quite shocked when i've learned that the anarchist cookbook was illegal as it is 1/10 of what we have been learning officialy in schools

10:30 < myr> and these stories need to be told

10:30 <@PeterFuchs> true Ana

10:31 < Ana> it is funny. and we had played each year a day called NNNI (nothing can surprise us) when everyone would get another war rule and then beng-beng on streets

10:31 <@PeterFuchs> In hungary we had special boot camps where we were thought on artirelly, guns, but it was VERY lightly taken, in Jugoslavia it was way more serious

10:32 < Ana> yes, as we had a really big army

10:32 < myr> all this is new to me

10:32 <@PeterFuchs> Narodna Armija Jugoslavia

10:32 < Ana> i was in scauts then, it was connected to the army, we were taken to all kinds of weird tunnels

10:33 < myr> and many people i know do not know this either

10:33 < Ana> well, you know each building built after 60s has a nuclear shelter here? now they are great clubs and sports centers

10:33 <@PeterFuchs> partisan mythology

10:33 < Ana> better many people do not know Myr

10:34 < Ana> the problem is not the knowlege, it was funny and it gave a sort of security to each of us, but the misuse of it.

10:34 < myr> that s what americans say about all their doodoo

10:34 < myr> why

10:34 < myr> better no one know about it

10:34 < Ana> we were speaking yesterday on misusing psychiatry, and this can be misuse really a lot

10:34 < Ana> it can be misused

10:35 < myr> in france it was like a feuillton

10:35 < Ana> if i would take my notebooks from the school - they are really not innocent

10:35 < myr> i remember being a kid and seeing it, i had not clue, nobody had a clue

10:35 < Ana> what is feuillton

10:36 < myr> we just could not understand why the hell it was so hellish

10:36 < myr> like a soap opera

10:36 < myr> feuillton is a television series

10:36 < Ana> aha.

10:36 < myr> west europe was watching and so was america

10:37 < myr> we are all responsible

10:37 < Ana> well france today with this demonstrations and so really looks like a bomb under a preassure - a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is under preassure which means it would explode

10:37 < myr> it s healthy

10:37 < myr> when i see Ana and Peter talking

10:38 < Ana> that is what we have learned here last days - censored traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is making troubles

10:38 < myr> you must both know michael moore film bowling for colombine

10:38 <@PeterFuchs> sure

10:38 < Ana> yes. and we have alejo here who is from columbia

10:38 < myr> oh Alejo we did not hear a peep from you

10:39 < myr> well bowling for colombine showed the tip of the iceberg

10:39 <@PeterFuchs> in some regards, yes

10:39 < Ana> when kids start to kill themselves and a war comes not only a game for kids

10:39 < myr> kids in america who are from minority homes see guns as identity, and shooting is seen as cool, hot, exciting

10:39 < Ana> movie culture

10:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes

10:40 < myr> no the movie is a reflection of the culture

10:40 < Ana> but kids at that age do not know what is really death. people have a romantic vision of death all until puberty

10:40 < Ana> they think they would come back

10:40 <@PeterFuchs> or until death, ana

10:40 <@PeterFuchs> take Ernst Junger book as an example

10:41 <@PeterFuchs> An interesting example might be Krieg und Krieger, a book edited by Ernst Junger in 1935, on the possitive effect of war on the german spirit

10:41 < Ana> well, yes.

10:41 <@PeterFuchs> a note I made yesterday

10:41 <@PeterFuchs> Walter Benjamin did a nice critique on it

10:41 < myr> i really thing an experimental film should be made out of these childhood memories and denounce the system fo adults

10:41 < Ana> yes, i remember.

10:42 < myr> about the concentration camps

10:42 < myr> because, the jews could have said the same thing

10:43 < Ana> well the problem is (this is what i heard on tv yesterday) - we have the upheaval in prisons and the guy told it doesnt matter what happens in a prison prison if the state is a prison which is not having much more than the prison in itself

10:44 < myr> but you know what , i met this artist film guy called andras szirtes who used some real film footage of the concentration camps and dead bodies being thrown over and many people thought it was blasphem but it really made me understand and it was reality, it made that persons death or that sadness make me live with more conviction, and make me more AWAKE TO LIFE AND HONOR LIFE EVEN MORE

10:45 < Ana> well, we were discussing this couple of days ago - i don't need to see death to understand it. i've seen only couple of corpses in my life and it is enough if someome says, these corpses x 100 000

10:45 < Ana> even one is scarry for me.

10:46 < myr> yeah i m not talking about showing dead bodies

10:46 < Ana> there is something of Kristeva in the last passage : )

10:46 < Ana> but the horror?

10:47 < myr> i m talking about how important it is for the other nations to know how the children were abused and manipulated and brought up to make that horrible war happen in yougoslavia

10:47 < myr> now i understand that the whole time, tha t war was planned

10:47 < myr> it s like that story of rwenda massacre

10:47 < Ana> but the problem is when you start seeing things - when the horror starts no where it ends, i think

10:48 < myr> by understanding these stories , the foreign people can better welcome the immigrants and feel compassion for them

10:48 < Ana> well, i think it wasn't planned as it happened… there were outer forces that had an interest in splitting yugoslavia; neo-liberal market nothing can survive in front

10:48 < myr> ok,

10:48 < myr> i m not into giving importance to ugliness

10:48 < Ana> yes, but if people didn't know how to make a war they would just surrender to the market

10:49 < myr> i will just do reiki prayer for those lands

10:49 < myr> and focus all of my positive thinking for humanity

10:49 < myr> but , i do beleive that it s better to have the wound exposed to the air then cover it up so that it gets infected more

10:50 < Ana> its true, but air is polluted as well

10:50 < myr> yes

10:50 < myr> i will pray

10:50 < Ana> even in hospitals you can get the gangrene or something

10:50 < myr> that s right

10:51 < myr> i want to go to Algeria

10:51 < myr> and be a video art teacher there

10:51 < Ana> would be good.

10:51 < myr> but they have no eauipement

10:51 < myr> and i will be payed 380 euros a month

10:51 < myr> i really want to go there

10:51 < myr> but it means sacrificing my feminin freedom

10:51 < Ana> well 380 € is more than you will get in some places in europe (romania, bulgaria, serbia…)

10:52 < myr> and barely supporting myself

10:52 < myr> yeah

10:52 < myr> but the apartment rent costs 240 euros

10:52 < myr> with electricity and heat

10:52 < myr> and i m coming from a comfortable place

10:52 < Ana> and schools would not give their own apartements?

10:52 < aleij_> myr: i met a very interesting young artists from algeria

10:53 < aleij_> shes now in milano

10:53 < myr> but everybody around me says i m crazy

10:53 < myr> yes i know her her name is Assila

10:53 < myr> Assila Cherfi

10:53 < aleij_> yes

10:53 < aleij_> haha

10:53 < aleij_> small world

10:53 < myr> she is from the same village as my ancestors

10:53 < myr> Ait LAcen

10:53 < Ana> thats really a small world

10:53 < myr> we are going to do a project together this summer in august

10:54 < myr> yes Alejo how did you meet

10:54 < aleij_> here in Aix, so i bet you are one of pauline oliveros contacts

10:54 < myr> yessssssssssss

10:54 < aleij_> i invited assila to meet pauline

10:54 < aleij_> nice to meet

10:54 < myr> u did!!!!

10:54 < aleij_> and sorry to hijack the thread

10:54 < myr> same here

10:55 < myr> pauline was my teacher

10:55 < myr> tell us about you

10:55 < aleij_> im in france, im from colombia (medellin)

10:55 < Ana> alejo is the author of the work you liked and couldnt put the comment, so maybe you can write it here, myr?

10:55 < aleij_> but my base is in switzerlandy'

10:56 < myr> heyyy

10:56 < myr> i really liked the soldier piece , my boyfriend coming home

10:56 < aleij_> i wonder if olia lialina liked it

10:56 < aleij_> doubt so

10:56 < Ana> i wil ask her

10:56 < myr> who is olia

10:56 < aleij_> is all based on her work

10:56 < myr> so how did u transform it

10:56 < aleij_> she did a seminal net.art piece

10:57 < aleij_> called my boyfriend came back from war

10:57 < Ana> its a work by a russian artist who had plenty of version, though this one is having a clinical support of the post-war traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... centre saying: it happened more like that

10:57 < myr> and so how was it changed

10:58 < myr> or enhanced

10:58 < Ana> actually it is strange - the person that comes back from war is more like a second character to the story, and here it is the main one…

10:58 < Ana> am i right alejo?

10:59 < myr> well i really liked it , it made me think

10:59 < myr> it had personality and brought out more universes than one

11:00 < myr> alejo, how do u know pauline

11:00 < aleij_> but the piece is nothing withouth the users

11:00 < myr> i m curious r u into music

11:00 < aleij_> is also based on IRC

11:00 < myr> IRC

11:00 < myr> ?

11:00 < aleij_> so lively chat like this one we have had here in the last days is part of it

11:00 < Ana> it is what we are using now as the chat

11:01 < aleij_> im into sound, but not really into music..

11:01 < aleij_> right now i work for this lab http://locusonus.org

11:01 < myr> well i m feeling all shaken up by what peter and ana were talking about and then alejo being the one who brough me and assila together

11:01 < myr> i m a singer

11:01 < myr> and filmmaker

11:02 < aleij_> yes, you live in paris or in a city in the south of france?

11:02 < myr> paris

11:02 < myr> but i have not foudn my place here

11:03 < myr> i m thinking of moving to algiers and helping set up the video art department

11:03 < aleij_> we work now on a project that uses SecondLife for a sound spatialization

11:03 < myr> sounds beautiful

11:04 < myr> if u ever need a great voice and improvistaitonnist with bendir call me

11:05 < myr> r u a programmer? do u use max msp

11:05 < myr> and jitter

11:05 < aleij_> so, if you like to phps contact the lab or be informed about research positions here email anne:anne roquigny

11:05 < myr> whats phps

11:05 < aleij_> not jitter but more puredata

11:10 < aleij_> phps = perhaps

11:16 < Ana> myr has fallen out

11:56 <@PeterFuchs> Bye Ana, see you tomorrow, I will have to go the a lecture tonight

Our afternoon debate starts at 18:00 GMT+2, titled: WITNESSING AND FEELING THE PAIN OF THE OTHER (on PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...)