Participants: Alejandro Duque, Stevan Vukovic, Tihana Jendricko, Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs

18:00 <@Ana> 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 Wellcome everyone the topic is VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... roles

18:00 <@Ana> it refers to the entry in our dictionary http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/victim-role

18:01 <@Ana> and our task would be to recognize it in culture : )

18:02 <@Ana> So, as tihana is the professional here and she has wrote the entry as well i have a quesiotn for her - who is commonly playing this role?

18:02 <+aleij_> brb

18:03 -!- PeterFuchs changed the topic of #victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to: VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...' roles

18:04 <+tihana> Sometimes this role is obvious and tjerefore it is easily recognized, but sometimes it is not so obvious. It is usually connected with gain person can get from this role. Often it is uncouscious.

18:04 <@Ana> what the person does? constantly repeats what s/he has done for someone else or cries?

18:05 <@Ana> but how to recognize people that are vctims from that want us to think they are?

18:06 <+tihana> Role of being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... a ppassive one, and benefits or gains are “gained” passively. It is certain type of behaior. It can include crying, but also different sorts of passive behavior. Ussually person is passive agressive.

18:06 <+tihana> Rarely people play this role as pllaned action.

18:07 <@Ana> but i think there are some cultures that are passive agressive (ones that are feared of direct conflict but they manage to erase the same amount of people by different kinds of other methods; economical destruction, deportation…)

18:07 <+tihana> More often it is they way they are used to behave throughout the life

18:08 <@Ana> are saints that get publically killed and heroes passive agressive?

18:08 <@Ana> (i mean; they could kill themselves less publically?)

18:08 <@PeterFuchs> is it possible at all to an artist to be passive-agressive? After all, artistic conduct is about expressing something?

18:09 <@Ana> well victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ... is an expression as i understood?

18:09 <@PeterFuchs> the most public suicideAccording to epidemiological investigations between 1.1% and 4.6% of the population have a suicidal attempt at some point during their life ...: Samson, the suicideAccording to epidemiological investigations between 1.1% and 4.6% of the population have a suicidal attempt at some point during their life ...-terrorist - joke

18:09 <@Ana> lets start the other way around - they make you feeling guilty?

18:10 <+tihana> Passive agression includes indirect way of conflict. Your question of saints can a diiferent issue. Such people dedicate their life and meaning to “higher goals”. You have the point Ana, but they ussually want to convey “a message” to the world. Which can be connected to exhibitionismExhibitionism is one aspect of sexual behaviour for some persons, but others have this way of sexual behaviour simultaneously with sexual activities within their longterm relationships ....

18:11 <@Ana> well this is what was my problem with suicides which are taking place in public, they always have a message

18:12 <+tihana> I am trying to include all of the questions asked here. Yes, they want to make someone feel gulity. Society or someone in personal.

18:13 <@Ana> it both refers to the behaviour of saints?

18:15 <+tihana> It could be. It also depends why someone is proclaimed a saint. When his/her ” message” is recognised by others from a group.

18:15 <+tihana> When this “voice” is alalone, this person does not have this echo.

18:15 <@Ana> giving a meaning to the sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ....

18:16 <+tihana> Yes. And recognized by others.

18:16 <@Ana> the actual thing is that calling upon victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... (our ancestors) can that be a gesture of such a blackmail?

18:17 <+tihana> I am not sure I understood.

18:17 <@Ana> for example if we (the nation, a social group) were victimized in the WW2

18:18 <+aleij_> the “machistas” in the city i grew up claim that is the mother the top of the machismo movement, she is the once who enforces it the most and they are just “victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...” of society… is that common in other “performative” places?

18:18 <@Ana> in the meaning once the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...- always the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... we were analyzing before, the way that this type of maneover is taken by social groups

18:18 <+tihana> Yes. it is part of a group phenomenas. like group cohesion.

18:19 <@Ana> but it can also make ghettoisation of groups - they are making a victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ... and they actually do not want to change anything

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> yes, aleij_

18:19 <@Ana> like an excuse for doing nothing

18:19 <+tihana> Identification with a group.

18:20 <+tihana> Exactly.

18:20 <@Ana> and using the maneouvr of victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...? passively gaining everything as always being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...… to be taken care of

18:20 <+tihana> VictimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... with passive aggressionBy definition it is an expression of aggression to other persons but indirectly in a form of passivity, masochism, or turning the aggression against the self ... always has an excuse for not doing something, and somebody else is always to blame.

18:21 <@Ana> i can recognize many parts of society in that!

18:21 <+tihana> Yes, and a care and attention you get from it.

18:22 <@Ana> excuse for doing nothing, finally i understood.

18:23 <@Ana> but i think it was a lots of explanation of Serbian politics residing on “being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...” of, stevan?

18:23 <+tihana> Yes, it seems you want that and you always try but somthing is always on your way.

18:24 <@Ana> that is what we have been talking couple of days ago that real victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is helpless in real

18:24 <+tihana> Exactly

18:25 <+stevan> Serbs claimed to be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the 'unfair' division in the (Yugolsav) Federation, where the sovereignity of Serbia was limited by the sovereignity of autonomous provinces - KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... and Vojvodina

18:25 <@Ana> but also victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the world politics and NATO

18:26 <+stevan> later on, but this first issue was to justify the attempt of Serbian politicians to dominate Yugoslav politics

18:26 <+stevan> and hijack the complete Yugoslav army to assure that dominance

18:26 <@Ana> by the inversion of the role of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:26 <@PeterFuchs> It comes to my mind on cultural victimization: the Hungarian far-right nationalism basicly feed on this effect 100%. They can always find someone, we oppreses them. Much like the same wiith many other social group, nation I assume

18:28 <@Ana> there is a definition of being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... behind every agression. isnt it?

18:28 <@Ana> it is interesting in Martha Rosler's work - all definitions of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:29 <@Ana> enforcing paranoia http://victims.labforculture.org/site/artworks/dustoftheoffice

18:29 <@Ana> but one thing i want to clarify is it possible that the victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ... comes as someone persues you that you are the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:30 <@Ana> or can it be that someone's capability of doing something is destroyed by enforcing one to feel as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:30 * PeterFuchs got enlightened on cultural victmization

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> can someone actively choose the role of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:31 <@Ana> we had in the morning session been talking on how many psychiatrists were in war on the Balkans. I wander if it is possible to make people feel being victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... even if they are not?

18:31 <+tihana> Yes, sometimes both can happen. It is this group identity. Or identification with a leader. It can be refferd to what stevan was explainig of what happened in serbia.

18:31 <+stevan> of course, becuse being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... somehow implies of being innocent and forced into a position of submission

18:32 <@Ana> passive agression, yes, but defended by someone else (the army is usually defined as an outer mechanism in such a situation)

18:32 <+tihana> Escepecially if a group or person feels scared or isolated. it is easier done.

18:33 <@PeterFuchs> yes, stevan thats the retorics of Hungarian extreme nationalism

18:33 <+stevan> the whole Austrian story of being innocent of their Nazi past was related to their claim to be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the 1938 anschluss by the Germans

18:33 <@Ana> that is the common rethoric, i think - even in global society: all USA wars in foreign coutnres were because they were victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:34 <+stevan> not only them, the whole world was the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of terrorism, and they were to save the world

18:34 <@Ana> yes, WW2 victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... will never leave us.

18:34 <@PeterFuchs> yes, of course

18:34 <@Ana> which means they persuaded the world into being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:34 <+tihana> Yes, this things are transgenerational.

18:35 <+stevan> they have to save somebody, otherwise, who would justify the money spent on the military actions to the Congress

18:35 <+tihana> By repeating that the world and people are in danger.

18:35 <@Ana> hero - victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., so it means you got to persue someone is a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:36 <@Ana> i was actually quite shocked hearing i was a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of socialism intepretation once i arrived in the West

18:37 <+stevan> as to the previous question, a quote: “The deeply rooted sense of KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... as the historic and spiritualFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ... cradle of Serbia has inspired her poets to stand up against the destruction of their own people. The main idea underpinning contemporary Serbian poetry on KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... is a refusal to accept and absurd fate whereby the Serbs are rejected in their own land and denied all aspects of human freedom, always under the threat of Albanian terrorists”, preface to the collec

18:37 <@Ana> but then these victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... which are not victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are not deliberately taking the role of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:37 <+tihana> Well, you could, as well as “they” could be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of some other interpretations.

18:38 <@Ana> which means if you are a Serb in the paragraph you got to feel as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:38 <+stevan> you had to, othevise, you would not be considered as a 'real' Serb, but a traitor

18:39 <@Ana> discourse implies victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., that is quite persuing.

18:39 <+tihana> It could be hard not to be part of a group, and not to accept certain role.

18:39 <@Ana> and people of course accept being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... far more than being an implied agressor

18:39 <+stevan> the funny thing is that one of the editors of this, Slobodan Vuksanovic, was the Minister of education AFTER the political changes in Serbia, from 2002 to 2006

18:39 <@PeterFuchs> and as a traitor, you victimize the others

18:39 <+tihana> right.

18:40 <+tihana> You are dangerous for a group.

18:40 <@Ana> he got used of feeling being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:41 <@Ana> well it is really eazy way to make a group condensation

18:41 <+stevan> a poem from the book:

18:41 <+stevan> Milan Komnenic: “Neighbors”:

18:41 <@Ana> but i wander here Tihana - could it be possible that these maneouvrse were coming directly from knowing psychiatry an dmisusing it?

18:41 <@Ana> I mean Serbian war politics is full of psychiatrists…

18:42 <@Ana> RAskovic in WW2, Karadzic

18:43 <+stevan> “They attack, assail, undo, snatch, vandalize, crush, bomb, cut, plow over graves,degrade, hunt out, set on fire, in Stimije, along the Sitnica, the tearfulriver, through metohian and down the Drim, apple orchads weep after the axe, blinded cattle, bellowing, icons burning, and smoke squealing, out of the inn, where they broke,

18:43 <+stevan> the knocker, cassocks and hagiographies screaming, crusifixes sobbing. and in the feaver, in the cold, while the heart freezes,we hear that even in the world beyond the same people

18:43 <+stevan> could be our neighbours.”.

18:43 <+stevan> that was the poem, sorry for slow typing

18:44 <+tihana> I know what you mean. Knowing how people conduct really helps a lot in manipulation. But I suppose if believe in such ideas you then you can start and push this whole process.

18:44 <+stevan> Karadzic himself was writing poems, before the war, in which he was describing Sarajevo burning

18:44 <+stevan> so, he has just realised his poetry

18:44 <+tihana> It reminds me of Neron.

18:44 <@Ana> sounds really convinient. mauricio noted this mornining that most of these leaders are also poets

18:45 <+tihana> Hm. Now I am worried. I am psychiatrist and a poet.

18:45 <@Ana> ha ha dont make a war!

18:45 <+tihana> I wil do my best.

18:45 <@Ana> : )

18:45 <@PeterFuchs> I have discount armies for sale :D

18:46 <+stevan> I have discount poets for sale

18:46 <+stevan> and some visual artists…

18:46 <@Ana> well seems wer have arrived to the problem of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - we are using only positive reading of science, and have ommited the negative ones! how to mistreat the PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... patients and make them something you want, or persue population into being victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:46 <+tihana> Thank you all!

18:47 <@Ana> you have found a leader stevan and peter?

18:47 <@Ana> what can PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... patients be turned into if they are not treated well?

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> critics make exelent evils sidekicks to dictators:D

18:48 <+stevan> if they play the court fools well

18:48 <@PeterFuchs> hehe, the word sidekick already implies a victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...!

18:48 <@Ana> interpreteurs and speech writers

18:48 <+tihana> I think that they first attached to they way society treats them.

18:49 <@Ana> but can you brainwash someone who has passed through the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...?

18:49 <+tihana> In Croatia they are disapointed in a way society works, that their expectations are ot fulfilled.

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> there is no need of traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... eve, Ana, thats what I learned during tht last few days, even the news can have this effect

18:50 <@Ana> yes, and you can persue fragile population into being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., we learned

18:50 <@PeterFuchs> I mean the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... effect,

18:50 <+tihana> Yes.

18:50 * PeterFuchs got enlightened on cultural victmization, even more

18:51 <@Ana> basically all you need to make a war is to make a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... and interpret it the way a person is a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and feels the new identity

18:51 <+tihana> The information someones gets and repeats them over and over again.

18:51 <@Ana> and the last thing is “sit down and we will do all for you”

18:51 <+tihana> Then it can slowly become a truth.

18:51 <@Ana> quite SF scenario

18:52 <+tihana> Totalitarian systems works that way

18:52 <@Ana> but what is the cure? how to de-contaminate people from feeling being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of something? of terrorism? of WW2?

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> If you all familar with the story of Adolf Hitlers rise to power, he came exactly from this victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... effect

18:52 <@Ana> yes, he was the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the artworld : )

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> the germans were victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of:

18:52 <@Ana> here in croatia main kempf is not banned

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> whatever he created to be an oppressor

18:53 <+tihana> Trying not get invloved. Like maybe participants of this debate.

18:53 <@Ana> yes, but what is the cure? when someone starts the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... discourse, how to get out?

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Tihana, good point

18:54 * pike trying not to get involved

18:54 <+aleij_> im a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the remark

18:54 <@Ana> you mean participants not communicating are passive agressive?

18:54 <+stevan> Karadzic had a thesis of “komsija ubojica i ukoljica” (slaughtering neighbour killer) who silently awaits you to become pacified, for centuries, and to get distanced from your nation, in order to kill you, so you should not stay away

18:55 <+tihana> No, Ana. Like therapist in a therapy - first you recognize clients behavior and then you don t behave the way he tries to manipulate you.

18:55 <@Ana> wow he has a historical intepretation… that is the most common victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... role i can recognize “it has been like that since ever” “slaves for centuries” “our grandfathers were enslaved”

18:55 <+stevan> it was almost a Lacanian thesis that it is the gaze of the Other that subjectivizes you

18:56 <@Ana> you give a sh… to the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... player. sadistic turn.

18:56 <@Ana> but if it is the whole population being persued they are victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - how do you get engaged if the only way is to disengage?

18:58 <+tihana> Well, you could be isolated or do something you can. As I said - debate. Somebody else might read this and share it with others.

18:59 <+tihana> It might change nothing, but you can try. Sometimes you have to wait for next generation.

18:59 <@Ana> and then again 40 years

18:59 <+tihana> But you have palnated a seed.

18:59 <+tihana> Correction - planted a seed.

19:00 <@Ana> thats what we were talking this morning, columbia case

19:00 <@Ana> that means that seeds of war may be planted much before? well i am kind of always more connected to the mere ecconomical goal

19:00 <@PeterFuchs> According to their theory, the Jews are waiting the true Hungarians to pacify for almost 3000 year. And I am serious.

19:01 <@PeterFuchs> I mean Hungarian extreimst theory

19:01 <@Ana> so they will continue to seed the theory until it gets functional, according to this thesis of hte victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...s

19:02 <+aleij_> colombia's president lost his father in the hands of FARC guerrilleros,… today during his second period in government things look in a way like a personal blood revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..... no one treated him for PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ..., he could be a poet also… the country is every day more polarized.. in a civil war everyone is a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:02 <+tihana> maybe, maybe not. sometimes it is just human expressed agression, without carefully planned action.

19:02 <@PeterFuchs> As the true chosen nation are the Hungarians - and becouse of this, the Jews are doing anything to stop them - even inventig the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... to delay the just cause of the Only True Hungarians

19:03 <@Ana> well, in the war on the Bakans most of protagonists had their parents committing suicides in their early childhood

19:03 <@Ana> this is an existing discourse, Peter? sounds terryifing

19:04 <@Ana> untreated PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> rock solid discurse

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> Sadly for you, not in English

19:05 <+tihana> Most of people that perpetrate murders solely have some deficits in early development.

19:05 <+tihana> They usually have certain kind of personality disorder

19:05 <@PeterFuchs> I grew up in an extremist neighbourhood, middle class area, all my teachers, even friends came form such backgound, and I disputed a lot about their ideas on this narrative

19:05 <@Ana> is it true that ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... can be got in the mother's stomack?

19:06 <@Ana> ghettoisation of self-victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:07 <+tihana> I would not say it is PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor .... You should have a sense that your life or somebody elses life is in danger.

19:07 <+tihana> Which can not happen in mothers stomack.

19:07 <@Ana> but i was reading that the ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... can be measured by the cortisole level

19:07 <@Ana> which babies can have

19:08 <@Ana> Well check this http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/jc.2005-0550v1

19:08 <@Ana> even a video http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392577&cat=1_4

19:09 <@Ana> or this is only an expalantion that “even babies in the stomack are not safe”

19:09 <+tihana> Yes, and you can have some physical symptoms connected to it. But i would say it is different from a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... that you have witnessed.

19:10 <+tihana> It comes to my mind taht it reminds me like babies from a mother that is an addict.

19:10 <@Ana> meaning that baby needs to see and hear? but a level of stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... is in the blood?

19:10 <@Ana> yes, the blood circulates and htey are hearing the blood pulse and heart pulse bumping (this is what i learned of techno music)

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <+tihana> right.

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> but i thiink that news are coming to that - pushing up the pulse beat and introducing a confusing imagery with a litlle of explanation to be continued… that is stressfull

19:12 <@Ana> though “even babies in stomack are not safe” is really sounding like one where heroes would start the war

19:12 <+tihana> yes, even more confusing, if you sense something and don t understand what it is.

19:12 <@Ana> news function as that… a slight confusion always present

19:12 <+stevan> so, we are, then, under a constant bio-chemical attack, from the inside, caused by the news?

19:13 <+tihana> yes, we are always in danger from something.

19:13 <@Ana> yes, i think so. do you have speeded up reports for the last years on TV? i was measuring that rhytm and it increased a lots during this period

19:13 <@Ana> we just need a leader a hero to save us

19:14 <@Ana> cortisole hormone works and the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... scenario

19:14 <@PeterFuchs> we, the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of information

19:14 < pike> So we are victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the news ?

19:14 < michiel> i thought we needed iconoclasts, not heroes?

19:14 <+tihana> yes. this could help us feeling finaly safe and protected.

19:14 <@Ana> yes, we are

19:14 < pike> I think being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is *only* a role - don't forget, by holding this discussion, you *are* the news too

19:14 <+stevan> but, that is the modern world, Walter Benjamin would say, where ego fuctions like a shield from the outer world, but also his idea was that avant-guard art should break that shileld using the shock principle

19:16 <+tihana> So it could rise to competing in shock is agreater.

19:16 <@Ana> well it is not a mere role, but even on mauricio's map some countries seem to use the notion of victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and play the role, while some others are really victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of something (earthquakes) and some are appearing like non existing as we got used on those victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:16 <@Ana> seems we can get PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... from art as well

19:16 <+stevan> I have it already

19:16 <@Ana> ok my next project is anti-stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... therapy : )

19:17 <@Ana> well i have it from the art of 80s - all these woman, black victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... earning a lots and living in new york

19:18 <+stevan> identity politics in art?

19:18 <@Ana> yes, including Balkan Baroque earning on being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:18 <@Ana> victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... identity is the manipulative one - you get a lot I understood by doing nothing! right tihana?

19:20 <+tihana> Doing nothing means that you change nothing - you stay in this position although you claim you want to make a change, but, alais, everything is against you.

19:20 <+stevan> but, there is something else, that I am curious about, how does it look from the clinical side

19:20 <+stevan> as for the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., who is to tesfify on court against the perpetrator

19:20 <+stevan> as it came out as a problem at the Hague Tribunal

19:21 <+stevan> how could the satisfaction of confronting their persecutors in court

19:21 <+aleij_> (side note about my shy intervention earlier: alvaro uribe was 29years old when the guerrilla killed his father.. people is trying to get him to the hague)

19:21 <+stevan> not be outweighed by the psychological strain suffered by the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:21 <+stevan> under cross-examination, and public disposure

19:21 <+stevan> can the real victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... testify?

19:21 <+tihana> yes, this is a problem. in our dictionary we have citation from one article. how could a victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... testify.

19:22 <@Ana> which one? i copy paste

19:22 <+tihana> one problem is if you could rely on their memory about the event.

19:23 <@Ana> that is what stevan was elaborating

19:23 <+stevan> dekerinerungen (screen memories)

19:23 <+tihana> I think it is under the term “witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ...”, includes witnessing and ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

19:24 <+tihana> it is

19:25 <+stevan> but, that goes to a more abstract question: could any retributive process be restaurative for the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

19:25 <@Ana> i cant find it there

19:25 <@Ana> separate entry - WitnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/witness

19:25 <+aleij_> thats the question of is forgivingThe trait forgiveness is the disposition to forgive interpersonal transgressions over time and across situations ... possible

19:26 <+aleij_> thats the question of “is forgivingThe trait forgiveness is the disposition to forgive interpersonal transgressions over time and across situations ... possible?”

19:26 <@Ana> yes and the one of the traumatic eventPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... that cannot be described

19:27 <@Ana> quite Lyotardian

19:27 <+tihana> yes, a bit like if a child can be a witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event .... how can recognised it really happened.

19:28 <+tihana> more specific measures are done in this direction - like Ana mentioned cortisol and other physiological changes.

19:28 <@Ana> that would mean that all these witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... diaries and cronicles that culture is relying onto for future revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... and interpretation is actually no possible in real?

19:29 <@Ana> and then also - the history is completely impossible if the witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... is never faithfull

19:30 <+stevan> if the child was raped, or 'abducted by aliens' (extra-terrestrials) - there is a recent film in which a child that was raped by his football coach develops a fantasy of being abduced and sexually abused by aliens instead

19:30 <@Ana> re-interpreting the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...

19:30 <+tihana> yes, transformed memory.

19:31 <+tihana> But the real memory could be reached.

19:31 <@Ana> well cou cannot do it for the WW2 victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... any more, they are dead and institutionalized

19:33 <@Ana> which means you cannot know the history. but also - you cannot get the psychiatrist records from these people, there is a medical rule, isnt it to reconstruct the event?

19:34 <@Ana> turns out that to write a history you need a psychotherapist and a psychiatrist to reach the real memory, wait until the person dies and collect scientifically gathered date

19:34 <@Ana> data

19:34 <+tihana> in certain cases you can - if a court makes such demand.

19:35 <+tihana> But being a part of historic events - complicates it, as you say ana

19:35 <@Ana> well, it is strange that mediated information, interpretation and the court proceedings are not the same

19:36 <@Ana> meaning 1. the history known to the court, psychiatrist.. 2. the history as interpeted by historians, base don retelling, 3. the history based on interest in media

19:37 <+tihana> right. different perspectives and aspects.

19:37 <+stevan> and personal histories of those involved, as published in fiction and non-fiction form

19:37 <+stevan> as straightly told memories or literature

19:38 <+tihana> the picture that we show to the world and we are privately can very much be different.

19:38 <@Ana> but you forgot the vicarious traumaAs Way (2004) reviews, the term vicarious traumatisation was first used by McCann and Pearlman in 1990 to describe pervasive changes that occur within clinicians over time as a result of working with clients who have experienced sexual trauma ... and fake vicarious traumaAs Way (2004) reviews, the term vicarious traumatisation was first used by McCann and Pearlman in 1990 to describe pervasive changes that occur within clinicians over time as a result of working with clients who have experienced sexual trauma ... of war tourists (history of those that were helping in the events, like ambassdors wifes, bend aids and photographers=

19:39 <@Ana> but tihana can you test cinically a diary of the Ana Frank type and say if it is a PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... or not?

19:39 <+stevan> dogs of war, who are, in fact, also victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., as adrenalin-dependent

19:39 <@Ana> or can you check for the consistency?

19:39 <@Ana> are addicts victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

19:40 <+tihana> You account for symptoms someone describes, as well as consistency. emotions they convey.

19:40 <+stevan> Ana Frank was also, after hearing on radio that these personal stories will be after the war extremely valuable for getting to know the truth, a bit adding style and some different flavours to her testimony

19:40 <@Ana> so if you check the novel - you can say if it is genuine or fake better than literally analyst?

19:41 <@Ana> that is what i wanted to know! if in work by Atlas Group the one that makes a testimony can be tested?

19:41 <+tihana> I can suppose so. it would be interesting to do. but i suppose this is possible.

19:44 <@Ana> well i ve seen a video by graciella tacquini granada, she has a witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... from the war tryint ot tell the story of herself and gets totally emotinally detached and seems like she is not talking on herself at all. and the author makes her to repeat, each time she tries to tell the story she fails on another part

19:44 <@PeterFuchs> could that be possible to analize witnesses at Hague tribunal this way if they are telling the truth?

19:44 <+aleij_> under the premise of the who dit what to who is how some agencies operate to get to some sort of real case events

19:44 <+aleij_> there an open source platform for colleting this datas

19:44 <+aleij_> was used in colombia in the putumayo

19:45 <@Ana> http://pro.imdb.com/title/tt0778730/ Granada

19:45 <@PeterFuchs> leave out the pro, I am not registred

19:45 <@Ana> what making platform of testimonies and trying to merge them in somehting?

19:46 <+tihana> that is why it is important to recognise the symptoms - detachment that is a consequence of a traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., dissociationPersons with dissociative disorders feel as though they have no identity, they are confused about who they are, or they experience multiple identities ... or is it malinegering.

19:46 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0778730/

19:47 <+tihana> Emotional response is very important.

19:47 <@Ana> well i think we will collect many videos and send it to you so you tell us if they speak the truth

19:47 <+aleij_> merge them into history for pursuing the perpetrators, finding dissapeared people etc.

19:47 <@Ana> artist confessions. i wander WHY none ever checked BEuys????

19:47 <+tihana> You certainly can!

19:48 <@Ana> artists that are malingeringMalingering is the intentional faking of physical or psychological illness or symptoms ... being the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:48 <@PeterFuchs> feeling like we are almost at rashamon, but in a much larger scale

19:48 <@Ana> well that would be the worst criticism

19:48 <@PeterFuchs> rashomon*

19:49 <+stevan> well, Beuys remembered that, as a fighter pilot in WW2 he was flying also over occupied Yugoslavia

19:50 <+stevan> but, his personal traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... happened much more to the north-east

19:50 <+stevan> when he was shot down

19:50 <@Ana> yes. but it would be good to see his story tested - he was lying on the airplane falling and there was NO TRAUMAPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... BUT HE USED THE STORY

19:50 <@Ana> there is a photo of him landing safely

19:50 <@PeterFuchs> I think he was injured several times, not only that famous one

19:51 <+stevan> so, he was a real war hero?

19:51 <@Ana> i somehow believe he was a fake PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... patient

19:51 <+aleij_> i always thought that was a myth (beuys traumatic war experience) so i was well taugh in the art school in colombia :)

19:51 <@Ana> me too, benjamin bucloch analysis of the consistency of the story concludes it is a complete fake

19:52 <+tihana> :)

19:52 <+aleij_> beuys is laughing at us

19:52 <@Ana> no it is the psychiatrist

19:52 <+aleij_> always

19:53 <+tihana> right. i sincerely like your comments.

19:53 <@Ana> the problem with beuys is - none of the witnesses would speak as they would uncover themselves

19:53 <@Ana> finding out some artists were faking not art but being victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and we believed?

19:53 <@PeterFuchs> I can remember there was a period when many claimed to be a tatar son of Beuys…

19:54 <@Ana> well and 40 years latter they would make a war

19:54 <@Ana> the only tatar he has seen was probably the sauce

19:54 <@Ana> but, we can test it on consistency with videos and all remarks on the event he has made

19:55 <+aleij_> great :) , in colombia a friend of mine was very proud of a little 2cm square of fieltro (fillet?) that was from a piece of beuys..

19:56 <+stevan> in fact, that wolf he was using in I like America and America likes me was the sweetest puppy I have ever seen on film

19:56 <@Ana> well that is neo-liberal market, you could eat better without the myth

19:56 <@Ana> yes, it looks like only an exhausted German dog

19:56 <@Ana> shepart

19:57 <@Ana> shepard

19:57 <+stevan> and it was so sorry for Beuys not playing with it

19:57 <@Ana> yes, he was too brave for that

19:57 <+aleij_> or the dog was playing the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:58 <@Ana> well, a list of possible fake victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in video art?

19:59 <+aleij_> actually, is should be possible to talk about PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... in animals

19:59 <@Ana> seems we are at the end of time. two minutes only to finish the official discussion and then off the record

19:59 <+aleij_> i can leave that for tomorow

19:59 <@Ana> i am not sure how you would diagnose it.

20:00 <@Ana> we have lost tihana it seems. but we can check it with her tomorrow

20:00 <@PeterFuchs> yes, that was addressed in one of the comments

20:00 <@Ana> where?

20:00 <@PeterFuchs> lets leave it for tomorrow, I have to leave, thanks for the session

20:01 <@Ana> ok. so thanks everyone and see you tomorrow

20:01 <+stevan> see you

20:01 <@PeterFuchs> I made a note on this, I think at Mauricio's work

20:02 <@PeterFuchs> bye all

Tomorrow at 10:00 you can ask more questions regarding this topic. The next official debate starts at 18:00 tomorrow. All times GMT+2