Participants: Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs, Mauricio Arango

10:11 <@PeterFuchs> goog morning ana, were you satisfied with the yesterday session?

10:16 < Ana> Morning Peter, yes, i am… but for some reason it borders me to take all sessions and see what are really smaller items of topics and indexing them. i am not sure if that is my index obsession or there is something to be found, but i will try

10:20 < Ana> pike i just talked to a friend from Yasmin, she may join us here Myriamm Hammani, she told me that sending feedbacks is impossible on site

10:22 < myrah> Type your text here …hi

10:22 < Ana> Hello Myrah.

10:22 < myrah> hey

10:22 < myrah> that was easy

10:22 < Ana> yes, you can also change colors. and it nicer (a bit oldfashioned).

10:22 < myrah> Ana , did you make all of this yourself , i mean the web layout

10:22 < myrah> good job

10:22 < myrah> so are you from croatia

10:23 < myrah> Croatia

10:23 < Ana> no Pike has done that (he was supposed to be here but hiss attention is somewhere else)

10:23 < myrah> or am I completely off

10:23 < myrah> did you get funding for this project?

10:23 < Ana> yes, croatia, but participants from everywhere.

10:23 < myrah> well what got you turned on to the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... sympton

10:23 < Ana> it is Lab for Culture - celebrating 1 year anniversary (of course delayed with this project)

10:23 < myrah> you are very passionate about the subject

10:24 < Ana> no, Venice Biennale did

10:24 < Ana> more i was angry on exploitation of the dead

10:24 < myrah> yes

10:24 < myrah> it s funny

10:24 < myrah> who knows when we

10:24 < myrah> are exploiting and when we are honnoring

10:24 < Ana> tell me where you were trying to comment and it was not working? on WDWTW?

10:24 < myrah> i dont remember

10:25 < myrah> i think it is when i was looking at the art work

10:25 < Ana> but what was the error, can you remember?

10:25 < myrah> i wanted to give comments

10:25 < myrah> and it was not allowing me to

10:25 < Ana> there was an error message?

10:25 < myrah> hmmm

10:25 < myrah> no

10:25 < myrah> but i did not log in as anything

10:26 < Ana> maybe, but you can invent some names… they serve only to recognize people anyhow.

10:26 < myrah> ok

10:26 < Ana> so you liked WDWTH, Alejo has the most comments

10:26 < myrah> i want to share something with you

10:26 < myrah> i work right now in a lycee in la banlieu de paris

10:27 < Ana> ok. great!

10:27 < myrah> the kids there are mostly children of immigrants

10:27 < myrah> and they carry alot of bagage , of pain for not fittting in right with french society

10:28 < Ana> algers and marocco?

10:28 < myrah> kids are born in france, parents are immigrants from different parts of africa including algeria and morocco and tunisia and also

10:28 < myrah> vietnam

10:28 < Ana> has the situation towards immigrants changed after paris demonstrations?

10:28 < myrah> a few french

10:29 < myrah> no

10:29 < myrah> it s worse

10:29 < myrah> these kids are lost and very agressive

10:29 < myrah> anyways, i was asked by one of them who is an artist and makes rap about the situation to video document

10:29 < myrah> a scene they are reenacting

10:29 < Ana> yes, thats what i thought. they are celebrating 1968 student upheaval and cannot follow up with understanding 2007/8 upheavals but are romanticising 68

10:30 < myrah> oh i m glad to hear you say that

10:30 < myrah> but 68 was mostly french

10:30 < myrah> anyhow i understand the french and i understand the immigrants

10:30 < myrah> nothing is black and white

10:31 < Ana> yes, i see that as super-truper cultural production. even here everyone is talking on 68 but not on real real problems of the society… as if 68 was a SF not speaking on own problems at the time…

10:31 < myrah> but to finish , the scene being r e enacted is that of a 15 year old algerian boy who was knifed to death by a bunch of 20 year olds to steel his knife

10:31 < Ana> i think the word REVOLUTION is corrupted and is surpassed by the society… (this is a paraphrase of Marx that communism will surpass the world history)

10:31 < myrah> no not his knife, to steel his portable phone

10:32 < myrah> his cell phone

10:32 <@Ana> event was real? refers to the real event?

10:32 < myrah> and this 15 year old kid did not know these 20 year olds, and he was going to school where i teach

10:32 < myrah> yes it happend 3 months ago

10:33 <@Ana> ok

10:33 < myrah> so this guy who raps aske d me to video tape them re enacting the scene for the 15 year old s family and that the rap song would be part of it

10:33 < myrah> and that if it was good, he wants to send it to cannes

10:33 < myrah> but also of course the main reason is to send it to the parents of the young man deceised who still lives in Algeria

10:34 < myrah> so i thought hmmm

10:34 <@Ana> ok. well rap is a very critical music, though it may also be that the boy inside would be forgotten and become a paradigm of the story…

10:34 < myrah> a part of it is to give importance to the kids death

10:34 < myrah> another part seems like artistic premotion

10:34 <@Ana> it is, but it would be good if it doesnt stay in festival circles only

10:34 < myrah> well yeah

10:35 < myrah> i was honnored to be asked by the rapper kids

10:35 <@Ana> yes… hm, but you cannot forecast the outcome?

10:35 < myrah> and i will video tape it for them ,

10:35 < myrah> i would like it to be shown to Sarkozy

10:35 <@Ana> well rap in algers and marocco is today what early communist writings were - very simple literature that shows the critical opinions of people.

10:35 < myrah> and ask him to give funding for the outcast highschools in the banlieu

10:36 <@Ana> but the rapper could do that as well? to give up awards or earnings if there are any?

10:36 < myrah> funding to create a sculpture and art program in the schools with invited artists , who would give workshops each month for the kids with a new theme, so the kids

10:36 < michiel> (people are everyday lifting on others tragedies)(use a beamer and screen it on sarkozys house)(asking money from rules means you'll get corrupted too)

10:36 < michiel> [just to stir the discussion]

10:37 <@Ana> yes, true michiel… but i am also thinking that a rapper should be the first one to bring funds - that would surely certify his will he wants to help

10:39 < myrah> sorry

10:39 < myrah> my water was boiling

10:39 < michiel> i'm not trying to state any truths, just random thoughts.

10:39 <@PeterFuchs> I can't get this rapper funds…

10:39 <@Ana> there are many tests there; 1. if the artists wants to help/self-promote, 2. if the sarkozy would make help / self-promote…

10:40 <@Ana> well - he can send all income from CDs or something to schools?

10:40 < myrah> well i experienced working for one year in a disfunctional school where all the kids are unhappy and feel like shit

10:41 < myrah> and are very very depressed because they know that they have a dissadventage of looking too much like an immigrant

10:41 < myrah> and even though they are beautiufl ,

10:41 < myrah> an arab or so black they are blue

10:41 < myrah> and very smart

10:41 < myrah> they are so hurt , and disillusionned that they are willing to do drug dealing to make money, thinking that they will not find much work in anything else

10:42 < myrah> so if i see a few of them, expressing themselves and creating intelligent rap, i m seeing some hope

10:42 <@Ana> but i have a problem with critical aspect of rap - if they would solve the problems of the world they would disappear (rap); so is the goal of a rap musician to solve problems or to use problems?

10:43 <@Ana> falls quite cynically with “activist art” as well.. the goal of activist art is to make art on activism

10:43 < myrah> yes , well i agree with you and beleive me, sometimes i find myself wishing i could go in a corner and make beautiful painting s and animations of dreams and princes and princesses like i used to, with animals everywhere, ahhhhhh

10:44 <@Ana> its good to express if that is the original, but what is see as a problem is when it once get institutionalized (art galleries, MTV…)

10:44 < michiel> artivism /can/ be ok i guess. sometimes activims takes different forms and shapes.

10:44 < myrah> but sometimes when i go into that mode, i am hiding from the work of reality

10:44 <@PeterFuchs> true Ana, but not contradictionary, they will change the world (of course they will not), and a new age shall come

10:44 <@Ana> i am not talking on activism - but activist art (activism in galleries)

10:44 < michiel> ah ok.

10:44 <@PeterFuchs> like the golden age of proletariat, whatever else

10:45 <@Ana> you mean they are at the peak of social creative process?

10:45 <@PeterFuchs> Activist art in gallleries are really shame - starting with Beuys

10:45 <@PeterFuchs> yes

10:46 <@Ana> Beuys was a hypocritic person, yes

10:46 < myrah> so Ana, i have been making art withtout ever asking for money

10:46 < myrah> and this iis also a comment i want to make for michiel and peter

10:46 <@Ana> all works of so called “Soros Realism”; socially aware critical art in galleries

10:46 < myrah> Peter Michael

10:47 < myrah> but it is very difficult to make art without any funds

10:47 <@PeterFuchs> hehe Ana

10:47 < myrah> i mean even this project was funded

10:47 < myrah> so that s why they have activism in galleries

10:47 <@PeterFuchs> Myrah, what are you making your living from? If I mihgt ask?

10:47 < myrah> hey

10:47 < myrah> it s not working

10:47 <@Ana> yes

10:47 <@PeterFuchs> Myrah, thats vary different

10:48 < myrah> what s happening

10:48 < myrah> i beleive it is blocked

10:48 <@PeterFuchs> funding projects and exhibiting them is very different

10:48 <@Ana> the problem is that so many of projects are funded as critical but they are just in the framework of criticism that is allowed

10:48 <@PeterFuchs> sadly

10:49 <@Ana> yes, can you imagine making a project on Murder and taking topics of revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., sacricity of passionate murder and things like that / just to invert topics of this one

10:49 <@PeterFuchs> who needs criticism?

10:50 <@Ana> society needs it

10:50 <@Ana> as they need also news in which they are NOT RESPONSIBLE on TV

10:50 <@PeterFuchs> in a more abstract level

10:50 <@Ana> but they don't need responsibility :)

10:51 <@PeterFuchs> those need criticism, who might bet a moral/quality contorol over their actions

10:51 <@PeterFuchs> I think

10:52 <@Ana> yes, but critical thinking is civilisationally over-valued (it is said to belong to working classes since Socialism)

10:52 <@Ana> for that reason there is far more of attitudes than of information circulating in cultural field, i think

10:52 <@Ana> inflation of critical thinking and inflation of attitudes

10:52 <@PeterFuchs> right Ana

10:53 <@Ana> if one would make a pool in which you have topics as; victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., murder, revolution, social justice… and you can answer only a) good or b) bad people would tend to give values to words not asking to what they refer onto

10:54 <@Ana> speaking on; inflation of critical thinking and attitudes where information are only there to illustrate

10:55 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, I just got the word, that tomorrow afternoon I cant be with you, they moved a lecture of mine, is it ok?

10:56 <@Ana> ok

10:56 <+Mauricio> good morning everybody

10:57 <@Ana> morning

10:57 <@PeterFuchs> morning

10:57 < pike> morning Mauricio

10:58 <+Mauricio> I hope you all are doing well. The sun hasn't risen on this side of the Atlantic yet.

10:58 <+Mauricio> …but the birds are already singing.

10:58 <@Ana> what time it is there?

10:58 <+Mauricio> It is 4.58 AM

10:59 <@Ana> wow

10:59 <@Ana> we had a guest myramm hammani from the yasmin, speaking on murder of an immigrant kid in paris in immigrant schools and rap.

11:00 <@Ana> but she has fallen out from irc

11:00 <+Mauricio> Oh, It's a pitty I missed the guess. Since I am just getting familiar with the format, did we get any questions from our discussion yesterday?

11:01 <@Ana> no, as far as i know. Peter?

11:02 < pike> I'm curious what happened to myrrah. Do we know how to contact her ?

11:02 <@Ana> there was the problem to leave the comment, i think, myrah told me

11:02 <@Ana> yes, i know her.

11:03 <@Ana> yasminner.

11:03 < nibbit> yasminner

11:03 <@PeterFuchs> questions as such not, but many loose ends

11:03 <@PeterFuchs> but that is normal

11:04 <@Ana> yes, plenty, as irc makes that way of thinking. that is what borders me to put it it parts and see which topics are closed… as they travel from day to day (some of them)

11:04 <@Ana> a-ha i have one for mauricio, someone has left a comment on my text and i think you may solve it

11:04 <+Mauricio> I like to hear it

11:05 <@Ana> It would be interesting to measure how representation of war through media and art channels is feeding back the power of those favored by these same wars… I am sure that if this information could be clearly expressed and visualized in a graph that would change the approach of many artists-victimsIn different sciences the term victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context … of the mass medi

11:06 <@PeterFuchs> I made my thesis on this :D

11:06 <@Ana> algorithm?

11:07 <+Mauricio> Then I think you, peter, are the most qualified to talk on this

11:07 <@Ana> i am really interested in how science would make a measure.

11:07 <@Ana> ok then put your thesis in the comment reply it is on my text : )

11:08 <@Ana> joking. can you say what was your resarch in specific? and outcomes?

11:11 <@Ana> Peter?

11:11 <@PeterFuchs> on phone

11:12 <@PeterFuchs> it is 90 pages and on hungarian

11:12 <@Ana> ups

11:12 <@PeterFuchs> and it is about how war is shaped by its own image form Hollywood

11:12 <@PeterFuchs> and vica versa

11:13 <@PeterFuchs> the starting point was the “images of war” in Hollywood movies like the Saving private ryan, and the realizm of war.

11:14 <@PeterFuchs> then I collected 50 sourses (as it is suppoesed to be in a thesis) to underline while is this a fascist proccess

11:14 <@Ana> stevan had a collection of hollywood movies refering to war on the balkans, balkans mafia… in most of them they dont know who is serbs and who croats

11:15 <@PeterFuchs> there is a book, which I really recommend on this topic

11:15 <+Mauricio> what is it called?

11:15 <@PeterFuchs> Michel J. Shapiro: Violent Cartographies: Mapping cultures of war, (University of Minesota Press, 1997)

11:16 <@Ana> thanks

11:16 <@PeterFuchs> James Der Derian: Virtous War: Mapping the Military-industrial-media-entertainment Network (Westview press, New York, 2001)

11:16 <@PeterFuchs> this one

11:16 <@PeterFuchs> I also recommend: James William Gibson: Warrior dreams: Violence and Manhood in the post-Vieatnam America (Hill and Wang, New York, 1994)

11:17 <@PeterFuchs> and Stephen Klien: Public Character and the Simulacrum: The Construction of the Soldier Patriot and Citizen Agency in Black Hawk Down

11:17 <@Ana> good one for analysis in visual culture: Death's Showcase Death's Showcase

11:17 <@Ana> Ariella Azoulay is the author

11:18 <@PeterFuchs> included in my thesis, yes

11:18 <+Mauricio> All these sound like great references. I should look into them.

11:19 <@PeterFuchs> I have almost 50 more

11:19 <@Ana> but i haven't found much of the analysis on the problems of numbers of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:19 <+Mauricio> I haven't seen that movie 'black hawk down', but it is always mentioned as an example of representation

11:19 <@Ana> which is the one that borders me… numbers

11:19 <@PeterFuchs> you should

11:19 <@PeterFuchs> really thrilling

11:20 <+Mauricio> I will. It had scaped my mind… until now

11:20 < nibbit> it had scaped my mind..

11:20 <@Ana> nibbit is a ghost writer

11:23 <+Mauricio> Do you know by any chance any books on the subjective effects of violence on a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

11:25 <@PeterFuchs> not clinical ones

11:25 <@PeterFuchs> only literate recounts, you should ask Tina

11:25 <@PeterFuchs> on this

11:26 <+Mauricio> ok, that's a good suggestion.

11:26 <@Ana> i think it would be good to use psychotherapy tools to analyze the literature recounts, but also movies

11:27 <@Ana> clinical ones, not the freudian

11:27 <+Mauricio> I am starting a little bit of research on that subject. Yeah, I am curious to see what psycotherapy has to say about it.

11:28 <@Ana> PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... test is really long. it takes couple of days to answer it (there is this confusion about referring of one question to the other)

11:28 <@Ana> i would be really curious if you take a carachter from the move and try to answer according to known behaviour in the movie - would it be he is faking or real PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

11:29 <+Mauricio> From what movie? from Black Hawk Down?

11:30 <@Ana> for example..

11:30 <@Ana> or take ana frank diary and distinguish a narrative from symptoms and analyse if the symptoms are referring to the situation

11:30 <@PeterFuchs> I would have some recommendation

11:30 <@PeterFuchs> for characters

11:31 <@PeterFuchs> but in most cases the effect if quite evident

11:31 <@Ana> if you get that the character is not showing symptoms of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... then the probelm si you can start being suspicious about the authenticity

11:32 <@Ana> especially in “world making” regarding consistency of movie worlds and literature

11:32 <@Ana> well PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... is not only sweating and nightmares… there is about hundreds of small things to meet

11:33 <+Mauricio> In what other ways if manifests?

11:33 <@Ana> that is the difference between public reception and the reality of ptsdPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor .... you have it in Alejo's work

11:33 <@Ana> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/ptsd

11:34 <@Ana> but it is visible in Alejo's work - you have there PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... patient

11:35 <@Ana> but a very important factor is, REVENGEFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... is healthy dealing with PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...

11:35 <@Ana> a need to revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

11:36 <+Mauricio> I think today i have only questions…

11:37 <@Ana> thats fine, though we dont have answers but i think questions work better on my brain than answers

11:38 <+Mauricio> Ana, so if it the need for revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... is healthy, what happens when there's a whole community that experiences a traumatic violent situation.

11:38 <+Mauricio> ?

11:38 <+Mauricio> Can that collective sense of revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... be dangerous?

11:38 <@Ana> it should experience a need to revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... as a part of the process, well…

11:38 <@Ana> yes it can.

11:38 <+Mauricio> I guess one can see that in the US and their response to 9-11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ...

11:39 <@Ana> yes. check this http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/revenge

11:39 <@Ana> that is why i like psychoanalysis - it does not mask the problem, it finds it

11:40 <@Ana> then we can speak of the culture which has an illness (PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... culture)

11:42 <@Ana> but i found this very useful for analysis of artworks. I was comparing (for a text on this project) Anur Hadziomerspahic poster designs; he was using phtoos of clothes from exchumation of Srebrenica massacreThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ..., which was branded and comparing it to Toscani's add for Benetton with a Croatian soldier clothes. they look the same those posters, but ONLY one has a need to revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

11:42 <@Ana> you can see the poster and the interview with Anur here http://victims.labforculture.org/site/interviews/death-and-advertising

11:43 <@Ana> which is the problem of useless and purposive we were talking some day

11:44 <+Mauricio> Please correct me if I am wrong, you have said that audiences that are exposed to violent information all the time may suffer too of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor .... So the loss of response we experience from the news (nothing impresses us anymore) can also be a symptom of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ...?

11:45 <@Ana> well, that is what i want to get researched. it is consistent that if we are constantly threatened to life we are getting PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... which by the definition makes the anxiety disorder

11:45 <@Ana> which means - if you want to get a passive nation or population all you got to do is to expose it to a sufficient amount of life-stressing events

11:46 <@Ana> BUT the problem is - the audience that has lived the real stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... once (post-war communities) have a bigger tolernace on the news… which you may see in the statistics of Andreja kuluncic

11:47 <@Ana> though - i also think that is the reason that news on TV are starting with the most stressfull not (which would be far more human) increasing the stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... factor

11:47 <+Mauricio> so those who have suffered the real event (as oppossed to the mediated one) are more resilient to information on the news?

11:48 <@Ana> if those news are not making their traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... active again (this is a corrollary)

11:48 <@Ana> basically you can press the button for the revolution 40 years latter

11:50 <+Mauricio> Ok, I'll continue with my questions…

11:50 <@Ana> but with PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... - people that have stressfull life before the war have made their ways out by themselves, yes, they had coping mechanismsCoping mechanisms are one group of coping skills ...

11:52 <+Mauricio> In societies where there's been war, and huge abuses against a group of the population, what happens when there is impunity? is that a recipe for a never closing wound?

11:52 <+Mauricio> -I'm asking this with the case of Colombia in my mind-

11:52 <@Ana> well that is what i read out of these definitions of psycho-analysis. and it is not by chance that SErbian war was lead by psychiatrists!

11:53 <@Ana> what i have learned is - as a psychiatrist can make a person healed it can also mis-use his/hers knowledge… just reading what makes a problem worst (like how to freak out the obsessive compulsive)

11:54 <@Ana> but i think that war and propaganda machines know that for decades…

11:54 <+Mauricio> Sometimes the things that happen goes beyond any fiction… like you mentioned, a war lead by a psychiatrist.

11:55 <@PeterFuchs> yes, that always was a question for me, if we are aware of the anatomy of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... there are power who can exploit it

11:55 <@Ana> check the guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_KaradEi%87

11:56 <@Ana> 5 million award for the psychiatrist

11:57 <@PeterFuchs> can you provide the link again, it is messed up at the end

11:57 <@Ana> a strategy from the WW2 Rašković also a psychiatrist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Ra%A1kovi%87

11:59 <+Mauricio> you can try this one and follow the link it will show you: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Radovan+Karadic&ns0=1&fulltext=Search

12:00 <@Ana> i think Tina and Tihana told me about couple of more psychiatrists that have engineered wars.

12:01 <+Mauricio> For what I read he was also a poet (!)

12:02 <@PeterFuchs> hmm, already noon, I have to leave, see you at 18:00

12:02 <@Ana> yes, they all are; starting with Nero… Nazis tec..

12:02 <@Ana> ok.

12:02 <@Ana> there is a book Tihana was mentioning something like Intellectuals in war where the author has proven that more educated person is engaged in war it gets more profiled and sick and the worst impakt was done by psychiatrists

12:04 <+Mauricio> Ana and Peter, it is 6 am here. I need to take a little break. All this information has been really good. Thank you for all the ideas and sources of information

12:04 <+Mauricio> This is very estimulating

12:04 <@Ana> me too. yes. see you at 6

Our afternoon debate starts at 18:00 GMT+2, titled: VICTIMSIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...’ ROLES (religion, office, housekeeping)