Participants: Mauricio Arango, Tina Peraica, Peter Fuchs, Alejandro Duque.
Moderated by Ana Peraica.

18:00 <@PeterFuchs> Welcome everybody

18:00 <@Ana> 18:00 wellcome everybody officially.

18:00 <+Mauricio> Hi everybody

18:01 <@Ana> We have Mauricio here whose work we've been discussing

18:01 <@Ana> Many questions. first one is - why Australia is totally invisible on the map???

18:01 <@Ana> http://dayafterday.labforculture.org

18:02 <@PeterFuchs> I guess the database in not covering Australian press? Or simply there are no events in Australia at all?

18:02 <@Ana> It seems it has only 4 news; one shark killing a boy, one sea scooter accident, one hunter and a terrorist deportation

18:02 <+Mauricio> Ok. There may be technical explanations, the system may not be recording the news coming from Australia. But also it may reflect that other countries are taking a more central role when referrring to victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:03 <@Ana> totally 4 events; 2 accidents of nature, 1 accident of humans and one news for someone else

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> They have a way easy job, as they have exterminated nearly all of the aboriginals

18:03 <@Ana> this would totally reflect Not in news - not existing

18:03 <@Ana> aha - no more victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... / all exterminated

18:04 <+Mauricio> As you write those 4 event on your post Ana, it made me think that even as we discuss victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... & news, we are talking about certain statistics and figures. It feels very detached.

18:04 <@PeterFuchs> I think we have go deep into the concept of “News” first.

18:05 <+Mauricio> Yes, i agree

18:05 <@Ana> though, amazing thing that the amount of TV spectacle of disasters (China, tsunami…) takes the same place as small news in USA, UK, France and Germany which seem to have more frequent news of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... Are then these countries having a “victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...” focus?

18:05 <@PeterFuchs> News is something happening - but not only the news from the media

18:06 <@PeterFuchs> Lets start from the news angle Ana, then we will cover the topic of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in the news, ok?

18:06 <@Ana> News is something that makes a difference in whatever / or is expected to make a difference

18:06 <+Mauricio> Yes, like a little (or sometimes larger) ripple in an otherwise flat scenario

18:06 <@Ana> allright, i think this is my definition. you?

18:07 <@Ana> a rupture, a break, a change, drammatic turn… something like that

18:07 <@PeterFuchs> news I think events that have any influence on us, any information which diverts our daily plan in any regard

18:07 < michiel> is it? news is for me nothing more than part of the otherwise flat scenario, unless you become part of it in some way. By consuming news, i'm not taking part.

18:07 <+Mauricio> In that sense news have a direct connecction with memory. A very poetic definition of memory i once read is that it is somehting that leaves a scar

18:08 <@Ana> hm but THEY DON'T. most of them i mean, they are tailored to make us feel there is something but also at the same time not feeling responsible

18:08 <@PeterFuchs> yes, but you are effected by them - you start to contemplate on them, you start to fear them, you start to like them

18:08 <@Ana> i agree with michiel

18:09 <+Mauricio> Yes, no matter how short is our attention span, and how much information we consume daily, those images and headlines do have an effect on us.

18:09 <+Mauricio> even if we don't realize it.

18:09 <@Ana> one thing i realized - news fullfil human's need for ADRENALINE especially now with music and speeding up of language, introducing couple of informations running at the same time, which confuses (CNN layout) and produces a panick

18:09 <@PeterFuchs> by consuming news, you are getting narratives on some event, but imaginary in many sense - they are constructed to fullify these needs

18:10 <@PeterFuchs> Most news are built around narratives which we are really familiar with

18:10 <@PeterFuchs> and thats the intention of the producers of them

18:10 < michiel> consuming news is for me part of the flat scenario. I see the different landscapes, but they're all landscapes. Some beautiful, others are awfull.

18:10 <@Ana> i was counting the beat of news on Croatian TV (rhytm of the music and exchange) it is now at the speed which is considered extremely high blood preassure near heart attack

18:11 <+Mauricio> I think Ana has another interesting point: News as an adrenaline suplement.

18:11 <@PeterFuchs> like in music clips

18:11 < michiel> i agree with Mauricio here.

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> If any of you happened to see the movies: Children of Man and 28 days later - both starts with “fictious” newsreels

18:12 <@Ana> yes. but news work on couple of layers: 1. confusion (mixing up information), 2 expectation (they are never finished, they are to come up with more), 3 breaking point (more to less horror, so you don't get used slowly on growing doses, but are kicked)…

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> yet, they are very familar

18:13 <@Ana> sounds like orson welles we were discussing

18:13 <@PeterFuchs> which is a proof for me, that news are in fact could be entirely fictious

18:13 <@PeterFuchs> yes

18:13 <+Mauricio> But here it would be interesting to see how news consumption happen in different places. In a so called 1st world society news have a different effect to the one you feel if you are living in a place that is being the protagonist of those news.

18:14 <@Ana> that's surely different. in balkans rape is not news it is a tradition

18:14 <+Mauricio> yes.

18:14 <@PeterFuchs> In order to undestand this effect we might travel back in media history a little - to the age before electronic media

18:14 <@Ana> but also suicides are quite “normal” in the North of Europe, here they are spectacles

18:15 <+Mauricio> Do you want to elaborate on this Peter?

18:15 <@PeterFuchs> Sure

18:15 <@Ana> sounds like Eliza couple of days ago :)

18:15 < michiel> well, being a protagonist in some sort of news, makes you more aware of the orson wellian proportions or degrees

18:15 <@PeterFuchs> Before the invention of the radio, even telepgraph, we allready had an enermous emaount of media

18:16 <@PeterFuchs> but the information delay was 1-2 weeks

18:16 <@Ana> Don't kill the messenger (Greek news)

18:16 <@PeterFuchs> most rules of our middle class media consuption happened then

18:16 <@PeterFuchs> were established

18:16 <@Ana> it was based on the gossip?

18:17 <@PeterFuchs> And there were an immese amount of fake and fictious news

18:17 <@Ana> that would mean - the gossip is the oldest media form

18:17 <@Ana> media report, sorry

18:18 <@PeterFuchs> for example: a closer example, the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... - people were not beleiving to the reports of such an evvent anywhere, since during the 1st world war, they had “pictoral” reports of Germans eating children in large scale

18:18 <@Ana> where did you get this: for example: a closer example, the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... - people were not beleiving to the reports of such an evvent anywhere, since during the 1st world war, they had “pictoral” reports of Germans eating children in large scale

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> which was the invention of British reporters, since they had no inforamtion, but wanted to keep people interested

18:19 < michiel> Ana: it's on display in the museum in Ypres

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> (my 6 year media studies)

18:20 <@PeterFuchs> if you like, I can even support you the images

18:20 <@PeterFuchs> but takes time

18:20 <@Ana> no but the point - they were not believing - sounds insane if people were believing movies

18:20 <+Mauricio> Now we have instantaneous access to news. Everything is supported by images -film, photos.

18:20 <@PeterFuchs> anyway, with the advancement of technology, more “reliable” news came

18:20 <@Ana> moreover - believing to Orson Welles radioshow

18:21 < michiel> PeterFuchs: sometimes people look at what happened at media in the early 20th century, with reports on oil industry in the usa for example. Many people now see that as the only “true” media era

18:21 <+Mauricio> ..and still one wonders how much people believe, or care to believe, in the news we consume

18:21 <@PeterFuchs> even too many of them!, which is the key to undestand nowadays new consuption

18:21 <@Ana> but this with holokaust sounds very, very political claim

18:21 <@Ana> they did not know - changed for they did not believe

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, during the 2nd world war, the british public was nearly immune to his kind of news

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> as “we” are to starving eutiopean childrens views

18:22 <+Mauricio> Peter, why do you think British audiences were inmune to those news?

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> sure

18:23 <@Ana> well i cant believe it, but it can be a problem of isolomania (totally different way of interpretation that is connected to media or information disconnection)

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> I was reading true for years of local media

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> for a resraech

18:23 <+Mauricio> is that an effect of distance: believing things happen to far to matter?

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> between 39 and 45

18:23 <@Ana> well depends of the reality effect

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> the main key is the narrative

18:24 < michiel> Mauricio: distance in a psychological or geographical way?

18:24 <@PeterFuchs> which rings the bell in the reader

18:24 <@PeterFuchs> interesting question Mic.

18:24 <@Ana> and also - can it be imagined or it goes far more than the imagination allows. i never believed in the plain crash in which a stuard woman survived and was eaten up by canibals

18:24 <@Ana> yes, the narrative…

18:25 <@Ana> and the knowledge - many people today think it is impossible to climb up to the moon

18:25 <+Mauricio> Michiel, maybe both. In colombia, where I grew up, we heard news about the internal conflict. Things happening in the country side. And yet, life continued as if nothing for people in the cities. It was like listening to news from something happenning in a differet country.

18:25 <@PeterFuchs> If any of you happened to be in an event that turned to be a news item later, you know what I mean by narrative

18:26 <@PeterFuchs> I remember the 911, the way how our local media interpreted it

18:26 <@Ana> but it is never like reported…. i was in war in bombing, there was an old woman that didnt want to go to the sheleter, she would read agata christie and on each bomb draw a line, these numbers were so different than the ones in media

18:26 <@Ana> event actually cannot fit the narrative

18:26 <@PeterFuchs> they were ecstatic not becouse the events, but becouse something happened at last!

18:27 <@Ana> but narrative serves to transfer it easier. that is why gossips travel faster - they are idiotic narratives

18:27 <@PeterFuchs> the media in which the narrative takes place is really important

18:27 <@PeterFuchs> from books to news imtes

18:27 <+aleij_> agree with mauricio, in colombia got real when bombs exploded in the cities

18:27 <@PeterFuchs> items*

18:28 <+aleij_> (news got real)

18:28 <@Ana> yes. but they fit the headline information - breaking news radio and tv. one line always

18:29 <@PeterFuchs> And these narratives might give a little insight to your map, Mauricio

18:29 <@Ana> and are quoting news from before as a pattern (as recently tsunami; one disaster quotes the other, or genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... which quotes ww2)

18:29 < michiel> Ana: i had the same experiences in war regions and indeed, even if you have a longer story/narrative it seldomly gets picked up.

18:29 <@PeterFuchs> since the familair narratives are easier to produce for the reportrs

18:30 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Ana

18:30 <@PeterFuchs> this quting is really important

18:30 <@Ana> war is especially complicated to report i think as it is a chaos, and media needs to clarify the picture

18:30 <@Ana> as soon as you say genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... it is terrible, but somehow the number doesnt matter

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> I was studing reports on war event during the 2WW in the daily media. Amlsot 0% accurate they were

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> Almost*

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> they were really enjoyable, but totally false

18:32 <@Ana> well the problem is which pattern narrative news neeed to fit; victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... narrative, disaster narrative, evil people narrative

18:32 <@PeterFuchs> thats the problem for the editor

18:33 <@Ana> i was thinking of this when at the start of the war in Croatia a need of media to distinguish the agressor was always pointing wrong… then i figured out they have no other narrative than that

18:33 <+Mauricio> yes, when I look at the headlines coming from the news map I wonder what it means. It is a long list of sentences. 10 or 12 word that try to summarize an event. Even if the intention of the news source were compeltely transparent how can we -as consumers of news- make sense of tragedies, catastrophes, when we are only given a few words, a few sentences, a few images, in a continous stream of other narratives.

18:33 <@Ana> well that is why disasters come up with numbers

18:34 <@PeterFuchs> and there are some many of them…

18:34 <@Ana> 100 000 killed in a disaster - that is all you need to know (they are dead, so you are not responsible, but it is shocking)

18:35 <+Mauricio> I remeber the beginning of the movie Hiroshima Mon Amour. Which seems to me a very good analogy on confronting a situation of duress.

18:35 <@PeterFuchs> let me share you a standard news item form my local, HUngarian news, which might be higlighting some aspects of this narratives:

18:36 <@PeterFuchs> A vulcano has errupted in Kakambic. 20,000 dead. No Hungarian injured.

18:36 <@Ana> he he! reading: A disaster, but we are taking care of our people

18:36 <@Ana> don't panick - we got a state!

18:36 <@PeterFuchs> Now, thats the interesting- if any HUngarian woudl have been injured, it would be a MUCH falilar narrative

18:37 < michiel> Ana: your reference to state is quite interesting too. i can imagine that Mauricio or you have more experience with news/narratives told by powerless people?

18:37 <@PeterFuchs> The same with CNN, they always start with own casualities, and then some (colateral)

18:37 <@Ana> it would be shocking and engage another national thing: national empathyAn individual's objective and insightful awareness of the feelings and behaviour of another person ...

18:38 <@PeterFuchs> EmpathyAn individual's objective and insightful awareness of the feelings and behaviour of another person ... should be based in something, nationalism is convenient

18:38 <@Ana> yes, but for us this is not news much…. here they start as well with local news and continuing except in cases where there is a huge catastrophe that is more shocking

18:39 <@Ana> empathyAn individual's objective and insightful awareness of the feelings and behaviour of another person ... is connected to the national feeling (you feel more for your own people)

18:39 <@PeterFuchs> What is important enough to be a news item?

18:40 <@Ana> here? currently news are fictional they are only covering up the criminal in finding out some criminals…

18:40 <+Mauricio> I think the news apparatus is very similar in COlombia to the one you find in other places. This may sound like a commonplace, but there's always things that are convenient to report, things that get to see the light. And other many things go ureported. The victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., other than being the main character in the news story, has litle say on what is told and how is told

18:41 <+Mauricio> About your question Peter…

18:41 <@Ana> but one thing i have a question about - Africa is not in news. we got used to large numbers of people dying

18:41 <@PeterFuchs> sadly, we did

18:42 <+Mauricio> It is something that puzzles me. What is it needed for something to become a news item? …when the genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... in Rwanda happened it took major US media almost 3 months to start taking it seriously.

18:42 <@Ana> meaning: we digested Africa and we are just wating for another news, headline: NO MORE HUMANS IN AFRICA

18:42 <@Ana> LAST AFRICAN FOUND ALIVE EATING FLIES

18:43 <@Ana> well, that is because they probably had some interest

18:43 < michiel> what puzzles me too i your project Mauricio. Putting news in an artistic form makes the initiative maybe newsworthy, but seldomly the content. or is the goal only to let the same people think once more?

18:43 <@PeterFuchs> Mauricio, are you familiar with the G-word effect of Rwanda?

18:44 <+Mauricio> This is something I took from another discussion, but yes, in the case of Africa, and many other places, their experience is transform into an identity. So we, who consume media, already have a mental picture of what happens there, and what is it like. Nothing surprises anymore because we already 'know'.

18:44 <@Ana> one thing i've also realized - WW2 news are RSSfeeding more frequently than today's news (this is from our first page on the VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... symptom)

18:44 <+Mauricio> G-word? can you explain this?

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> G as GenocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ...

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> they never ever used this word

18:45 <@PeterFuchs> in any report

18:45 <+Mauricio> I think there was a refusal from the international community to use this word. Because it would mean they would have to commit to action. So the atrocities of Rwanda coudln't be stopped because of a semantics problem.

18:45 <@Ana> but what it takes to use the G-word? victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... should be Europeans?

18:45 <@PeterFuchs> becouse that would means they had to interven, since they signed an humanitarain agreement in the early 90 to do so

18:45 <+aleij_> from colombia i cant read anymore mainstream media, it all belongs to the right (actual government), i “feed” my self with rss from anncol (FARC guerrilla news, TelesurTV.net and indimedia colombia) but they make me feel reading the script of “conspiracy theorists”… but at least is an open platform where everyone involved can make/report the “news”

18:46 <+aleij_> (indymedia)

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Mauricio

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> and not even the reporters did it

18:46 <@Ana> interesting thing with G-word

18:47 <+Mauricio> SO, if we talk about narrative we should also talk about ideology. and what feeds that ideology (something that Aleij_ just touched)

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> (the worst cenzorship is self cenzorship)

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> yes, right

18:47 < michiel> PeterFuchs: also the nurenberger princples + 96 international court decisions about preventing crimes to 'humanity'

18:47 <@Ana> yes, but also the language is limited… when something as huge numbers happen how to name the disaster

18:48 <@PeterFuchs> since the identites we build are very much based on these narratives

18:49 <@Ana> i am quite curoius about why most of media is RSSing WW2 related topics of VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...? how it appears they are still relevant? are they serving to mask the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of today?

18:51 <@PeterFuchs> some of the most important effect of the news are “small community” imterpreataions of them

18:51 <@Ana> Peter, what do you mean by small community interpretations

18:51 <@PeterFuchs> like, when we share it with others, how we interpret them

18:51 <@PeterFuchs> yes

18:51 <+Mauricio> This is interesting, so on one hand we have the news apparatus (ideology + narrative), on the other our limited capacity to asimilate, to identify, and all our on biases and preconceptions. Just imagine the trip a story has to go through before in enters our mind.

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> thats makes them a complete item

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> exactly Mauricio

18:53 <@Ana> yes, then it also connects to other news. i was on the boat when KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... has declared independence, they called me another war is coming up in the area, panicking… as there were wars with each ex-Yu state claiming independence

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> so, besouse of this, each of us is building up a world map, like the yours

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> whith some areas visible others nor

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> t

18:53 <@Ana> not only that - but also a time frame: as ww2 events seem to be much closer in certain states in Europe than to others

18:54 <@PeterFuchs> most people did not knew about Miamar before the Tsunami, I think. Now it is on the map ((somewhere)

18:54 <@Ana> this is from the 40 years theory: it happens to be connected as if it was yesterday

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> but even a sopisticated, well literate member of our society could not give a longer narative on the current state of miamar (Burma)

18:55 <+Mauricio> So to connect this to the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., what happens on us when we receive information about an event? less assume we have at our dispossal the most transparent and accurate news source, and a willingness to emphatize. What type of opertions happen on us when we receive news? do we become 'victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...' by extension?

18:55 <@Ana> yes, i think most of people believed it is the name of the hotel, unfortunately

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> we fear to become vitims - thats what the news sell for us

18:56 <@Ana> Andreja Kuluncic's work is gathering statistics on what happens with news http://victims.labforculture.org/site/artworks/badnews

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> we are reading about shark attacks to fear them, and to be wary on them

18:57 <@Ana> or we connect them to discourses… like all leftovers of the left of communism are following Kuba as an important reference

18:57 <@PeterFuchs> and immedietly build up our “anti-shark” narrative

18:57 <+Mauricio> I need to review her statistics.

18:57 <@Ana> i think a direct link is in the transcript of the first page

18:58 <@Ana> but yes it turns out PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... effect is possible via media and most of countries in EE are still talking to friends and trying to do something, while Western go to relax

18:58 <@Ana> Hi Tina

18:59 <+Mauricio> which reminds me of that movie again, Hiroshima mon Amour. At the beginning of the movie, the french character, says she has seen it all. she's seen the news reels, has visited the war museums, has read books, etc. And the Japanese character only replies You know nothing. You have seen nothing.

18:59 < Tina> Hi to all

19:00 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats the point

19:00 <@PeterFuchs> HI Tina

19:00 <+Mauricio> Hi tina

19:00 <@Ana> mediated horror, yes… very different. Tina would know that. Do people that are direct winesses of terrible events feel their story is priviledged? in a way - they should be asked…

19:01 <+Tina> sorry for late

19:02 <@Ana> do they feel betrayed if news are reporting differently and “privatize” the story? what i heard recently (a curator has told that to me) when i objected on the use of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and found it really disturbing. she's told: None has copyright on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:03 <+Tina> yes they feel like that

19:03 <@PeterFuchs> I escpecially like the US Government announcmets which updates the “states of concern” to which citizens are not recommended to go. Since these countries are not in the news, people has no idea what it could like

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> announcments*

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> Lybia for example

19:04 <@Ana> than IF a witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... cannot speak objectively because of TRAUMAPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... and news are reframing news in their own stories: NEWS ARENT POSSIBLE

19:04 <@Ana> objective news i mena

19:05 <@PeterFuchs> but they pretend to

19:05 <+Tina> and each of them have different storie. according to they personality, earlier experiences,…

19:06 <@PeterFuchs> What do you all think, what are the ideal situation by the nowadays system? No news or only good news?

19:07 <@Ana> news are actually impossible, they are pieces of fiction that serve adrenaline etc… it turns out

19:07 <+Mauricio> I read that a newspaper in russia told its reporters that 50% of news have to be possitive.

19:07 <@Ana> but yes no news was a sailors sentence refering to the known places

19:07 <+Tina> i prefere no news

19:07 <@Ana> during socialism, mauricio?

19:07 <@Ana> yes, in socialism we had no bad news at all

19:07 <+Mauricio> yes ana. i agree. we face an impossible. we learn about things through news, and yet they are also a piece of fiction.

19:08 <+Mauricio> no, under Putin.

19:08 <@Ana> first bad news was the break of berlin wall and then all the news came

19:08 <@Ana> telling us we were disinformed for decades

19:08 <@PeterFuchs> My favorite piece is a news in Pravda, the Soviet Union's main newspaper

19:08 <@PeterFuchs> :

19:08 <@Ana> well, thats post-socialism

19:08 <+Mauricio> What was that news item Peter?

19:09 <@PeterFuchs> They wrote a lead article on a major political figure who were in exile, but now were allowed to return by Stalin

19:09 <@Ana> but much can be learned on how news are handled in political (then also ecconomical) systems in terms of consistency of propaganda

19:09 <@PeterFuchs> so the guy read the article, and returned to Moskva

19:09 <@Ana> and they killed him

19:09 <@PeterFuchs> and was immedietly executed

19:09 <+Tina> we can also compare our newspapers before in socialism and now. i mean in Croatia. the sitaution are the same like Mauricio said

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> He beleived to the MAIN headline of pravda

19:10 <@Ana> of course… but it also works in seeding panick. in war over here radio was used for that to totally empty the area

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> if it is on the headline, you have to beleive it

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> but check out his:

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> Stalin ordered to print a special, single version of pravda for this very pesron

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@Ana> i know this - for Lenin, thats called love

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@PeterFuchs> it was done in a few number of copies and handled to this guys friends

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <+Tina> and now, only good news are sport news

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> and they had trust in the headline…

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> No longer Tina

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> mind China

19:12 <@Ana> also Lenin was reading his own personal Pravda in the hospital before he passed away… it was assuring him he has made a great country

19:12 <@Ana> is this sarcastic? you mean the population growth?

19:12 <@Ana> and chinese capitalism

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> no, the China Olimpic situation

19:13 <@Ana> i thought about a reference of news: China's population growth, Chinese capitalism and the earthquake… things people know and do not connect

19:13 <@PeterFuchs> by the way, I don't think that those drug barrels which we call sportsman has anything to do with sports at all

19:14 <+Tina> i mean only car accidents, global weather situation, ….

19:14 <@PeterFuchs> spectacles

19:14 <@Ana> i was on the boat (no connection to Tv, mobile for two days) i missed news. Peter, please, who is a drug barrel?

19:14 <@PeterFuchs> this is a general view on sportman

19:15 <@Ana> but what happened with olympics?

19:15 <@PeterFuchs> nothing, going to take place in China

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> nothing will happen to it

19:16 <+Tina> sport and beer

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> ever

19:16 <@Ana> i thought something happened. well, this is the news effect. it happens to me when i am on the boat i feel everyone knows things that are relevant to my life and i dont and it takes couple of days to realize nothing happened

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> news items are not linked this way

19:17 <@Ana> you mean China earthquake? but you cannot erase the anti-Chinese discourse even from the earthquake

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> are you sure?

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> I am not in conspiracy theories

19:17 <+Tina> did you take a look on the Andreja project earlier, what are the statistics about this topic

19:17 <@Ana> yes, another example how 9/11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... was read in Belgrade.

19:18 <@PeterFuchs> but this is shiflting the general opinon on china

19:18 <@PeterFuchs> How was it read?

19:18 <@Ana> someones else revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... its called… and we are not responsible that is the 3rd aspect of validating the importance of news and it is quite politically incorrect

19:19 <@PeterFuchs> Becouse for us, it was immedietly validated in two ways: 1. Offical, like CNN. Bin Ladan, waronterror, etc 2. Hungarian separatist: It was done by the israeli to keep the world unballanced

19:19 <@Ana> you sure this changes the view on china? i think it only hides, makes previous discourse unspeakable

19:19 <@PeterFuchs> now that is what I call narrative

19:20 <@PeterFuchs> what kind of readings the you others got?

19:20 <+Mauricio> of 911?

19:20 <@PeterFuchs> yes

19:21 <@Ana> this case is different: 1. american capitalism (finally someone) 2. terrible thing hiding up the first emotional reaction

19:21 <@PeterFuchs> and its victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:21 <+Mauricio> I was here in the US when that happened.

19:22 <@Ana> and i have another one - Because USA didnt mind for victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... here which were much bigger number - totally making it irrelevant

19:22 <@Ana> i think those were discourses active around

19:22 <@PeterFuchs> the people jumping from the towers become the eminent vixtims for a long time, I think

19:22 <+Mauricio> There were many different readings. Some few media outlets were brave enough to link 911 to actions of the US in the past, 911 like a logical reation of previous actions done by this country. But most of the environment soon changed and got tainted by a spirit of 'patriotism'.

19:23 <@PeterFuchs> Do you know about the “alternate versions” of 9/11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ...?

19:23 <@Ana> well surely they are referred in many movies (narrated) which some others didnt have… Kosova, SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ...…

19:24 <+Mauricio> Even some of 911 victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... were used to fire the patriotic discourse. The firemen and police men who died attending the disaster became heroes, and were used to further the cause of those making decisions.

19:24 <@Ana> well that is the emotional aspect of the news reading, which we assume as the first and if not then it shifts to the discoursive testing

19:25 <+Mauricio> so again, the narrative became purely and blatanly ideological.

19:25 <@Ana> instrumentalisation of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...…

19:26 <+Mauricio> yes, but also the audience was instrumentalize.

19:27 <+Mauricio> 911 was the perfect excuse to appeal to the most basic emotions and fears to movilize a large population to support the war in irak and the re-election of mr. Bush.

19:27 <@Ana> it could be good to see how many of news are instrumental in newspapers

19:27 <@PeterFuchs> instrumentalisation of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - a good point

19:27 < Tina> true, instrumentalisation of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and audience

19:27 <@Ana> i mean which is the percent of media self-assurance (self-legitimation)

19:28 <@PeterFuchs> “instrumentalisation of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as audience”

19:28 <@Ana> yes, actually when you start thinking of that only MONEY, VICTIMSIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... come in numbers having more than six zeroes in newspapers

19:28 <@PeterFuchs> where is the way out from this, then?

19:28 <@PeterFuchs> BUDGET also

19:29 <@Ana> each of us should leave a letter to be excluded from interpretation after death, excluded from hommages and included in the report

19:29 < Tina> victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - fear - back-up for violent acts elsewhere

19:29 <+Mauricio> I think the answer is incredibly simple, but extremely hard to achieve. I think the answer lies in education, in awareness, in the existance of options.

19:30 <@Ana> the problem is it is easy to use victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as THEY CANNOT OBJECT, imagine yourself… you get killed and someone declares you were one of the nationalists and right wings who was a spy at your place and you deserve a monument.

19:30 <@Ana> well, again - it is impossible to prevent

19:30 <@Ana> you can do nothing even in your own place

19:31 <+Mauricio> I guess we can see here the power of news to shape a national identity, to movilize masses, to sustain a status.

19:32 <@PeterFuchs> I think that simple tools, like the Google earth can have this desired educational effect

19:32 <@Ana> i mean you cannot avoid the political interpretation of death and it depends of the owner of the media which sort it would fall. like you have in croatian media undesirable people (drug addicts dead, ex drug addicts, poor people…)

19:32 <@PeterFuchs> that software is a narrative too (all media are)

19:33 < Tina> but is possible to talk about that, educate peoples, for changing the point of view. to learn how not to be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

19:33 <@Ana> yes, but you can become victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... after the death even if you were not… ww2 numbers

19:33 <+Mauricio> and there's where independent media becomes so important.

19:33 < Tina> firstly, how to not be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of news

19:33 <+Mauricio> maybe that's why China is so afraid of bloggers.

19:33 <@Ana> yes

19:35 <@Ana> i always remember (though i forgot her name) the opera singer that was trying to make a suicideAccording to epidemiological investigations between 1.1% and 4.6% of the population have a suicidal attempt at some point during their life ... the way she is found beautiful as she knew reporters would come. she has prepared the interiour, put her make up and had some pills with alcochole. she has died of womitting in the toilet unfortunately and that news was the news sarcastically.

19:36 <@Ana> its about - what is news

19:36 <+Mauricio> that's quiet a poetic reversal of fortunes. I never heard that story, but will try to find out more.

19:37 <@Ana> from being the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of pathos - becoming a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of stupidity (where this first part which is the actual one has lost its meaning)

19:37 <@PeterFuchs> An example, which I was long awated to introduce. the Myspace dead diary: is (originally) ment to bring the event much closer to us

19:37 <@Ana> FAbienne Audeoud was making an artwork on that.

19:37 <@PeterFuchs> and now it become the most discusting site ever: http://mydeathspace.com/

19:37 <+Mauricio> can you tell us what is the Myspace dead diary?

19:38 <@PeterFuchs> it started as a grassroot blog to collect friends of the blogger who died, and others, who the blogger did not knew, but wanted to give a “face”

19:38 <@Ana> a cult of death connected to the deceased people online phenomena

19:38 <@PeterFuchs> it become immerly popular

19:39 <@Ana> probably with teenagers they romanticise death

19:39 <@PeterFuchs> somehow Ana, these event have become news

19:39 <@PeterFuchs> news, that accidents could happen to you

19:39 <@PeterFuchs> for me, thats the message behinf this project

19:39 <@PeterFuchs> behind*

19:39 <@Ana> “so stay sitting in front of TV and follow up: a new disaster…”

19:40 <@Ana> i am not sure. i think it is the commerce of death showing it symptoms. they are selling T-shirts there

19:40 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyDeathSpace.com

19:40 <@Ana> how to profit from your death is neo-liberal question

19:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats what I mean

19:41 <@PeterFuchs> “The Associated Press has written an article about MyDeathSpace.com, which has been picked up by ALL news sources effectively taking down MyDeathSpace.com. The traffic is causing the box to become completely unresponsive. Please stay tuned into this page for updates!!!”

19:41 <+aleij_> theres also this work from manuel: http://n3krozoft.com/projects/art/lol/index.html

19:41 <@Ana> yes as the public talk on death usually evokes to cults

19:42 <@Ana> and state is afraid if someone else kills themselves, as then they would have nothing to do. this is the point of a stalinist terror - not to allow to people to kill themselves

19:42 <@PeterFuchs> imagine a news agency who gives a new narrative to the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - making a myspace account for them

19:43 <@Ana> and of course again Rade Koncar who appeared to kill himself though it was Germans

19:44 <@Ana> that would be a total proliferation of death, as there is more people who died than those living in history and because of small natality. its easier to squeeze them in numbers

19:45 <@Ana> the problem is - you cannot chose victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of what, that is the point of the state of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... (those that choose are suicidal people; they can help to themselves) and you dont know how that owuld be interpreted

19:46 <@Ana> like you cannot write a testimony telling: if something happens to me plese interpret it as the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the neo-liberal ecconomy not something else, i give my vote!

19:46 <+aleij_> Below are links to the final moments of Brandon's life as he chatted in an IRC room. They are provided here in an effort to be completely accurate on what happened:

19:46 <+aleij_> http://www.brandonvedas.com/internet.html

19:47 <+Mauricio> It also seems that there is a fascination with morbid things (as seen on mydeathspace). Maybe we can see that fascination on the ways news are consumed too.

19:48 <@Ana> yes, but as “hidden meaning” maybe. it is not transparent for sure as news are moralizing

19:48 <@PeterFuchs> of course

19:48 <+Mauricio> yes, but the one who's sitting in from of the tv, or the computer, is maybe trying to get his/her adrenaline rush as you mentioned before.

19:49 <@Ana> you can also ask for which reasons people may go to Auswhitz. Try to name them

19:50 <+Mauricio> that's a difficult question.

19:50 <@PeterFuchs> if the news are competing against other kinds of entertainment genrres, the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are becoming entertainers too

19:50 <@PeterFuchs> genres*

19:50 <@Ana> that is what i want to say as well

19:51 <@PeterFuchs> entertaining victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...…

19:51 <+Mauricio> Do you think some want to make sense of that event they've heard of and read of? but that still feels abstract and distant. Do you think some people go there to understand better?

19:52 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I do

19:52 <+Mauricio> on that note, it would be good to know the position of the German gobernment on it. they could stop those visits if they wanted

19:52 <@PeterFuchs> I beleive that those people who are really interested are seeking out for other means to get the information

19:52 <@Ana> i think it is insane for all poeple that are not connected emotionally to the tragedy, meaning relatives… it becomes a morbid tourism and can also be a place of quite sick things

19:53 <@PeterFuchs> Any of you happened to visit the former concentration camp at Mauthausen? ( I will talk about this the day after tomorrow)

19:54 <+Mauricio> Ana. but there can be a possitive effect on that. Like I go there, as a tourist, to take pictures, having no real connection to it. BUt after being there I go to an experience that may open my eyes a little.

19:54 <+Mauricio> peter, I never been there. can you tell us a little

19:55 <@Ana> me either

19:55 <@PeterFuchs> Hmm, we are running put of time soon…

19:55 <@PeterFuchs> I will tell you more on this on Thursday

19:55 <+Mauricio> ok, you want to keep the suspense. we'll wait.

19:55 <@PeterFuchs> we had no time left, and it is less connected to the news topic

19:55 <@Ana> ups yes. we have to conclude. Is it really no news good news (except for the Australia where Europeans were escaping from being a part of the news)

19:56 <@Ana> would work for Mirramar but not for Africa

19:56 <+Mauricio> Well, no news is as bad as having only good news.

19:56 <@PeterFuchs> It was really interesting to talk again

19:57 <+Mauricio> from this discussion i think the issue is how news are prepared and used… but well, running out of time.

19:57 <@PeterFuchs> No news means only “we are not looking at you”

19:57 <+Mauricio> and how victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... become a piece of somehting else (of someone's strategy).

19:57 < Tina> yes it was really interesting.

19:57 <+Mauricio> But, well, it was great to be here.

19:57 <@Ana> that is good! we forgot the hot news (the new information)

19:58 <@PeterFuchs> yes, but somehow we also touched the absense of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., news

19:58 <@PeterFuchs> thanks for all, many interesting comments

19:58 <+Mauricio> I hope to see you again in the next debates. We'll answer your questions tomorrow.

19:59 <@Ana> yes, but informational repetition guarantees that second tsunami will not have such a news force as the first one… which is terryfing

19:59 <@Ana> yes. see you tomorrow

19:59 < Tina> good bye to all.

19:59 <+Mauricio> Good bye to all too.

20:00 <@PeterFuchs> good bye to all

20:00 < angela> bye all, thanks

20:00 <@Ana> bye

Tomorrow at 10:00 you can ask more questions regarding this topic. The next official debate starts at 18:00 tomorrow. All times GMT+2