Participants: Ana Peraica, Peter Fuchs, Stevan Vukovic, Alejandro Duque

10:00 <@Ana> i've seen yesterday stevan commenting on definitions that they are too clinical. i was considering of enabling some more of Wiki options

10:01 <@Peterfuchs> like?

10:01 <@Ana> so it would be possible to add things that came through discussions; victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...'s narrative, 40 years period, memory and expiry date…

10:02 <@Peterfuchs> good idea

10:02 <@Ana> the add option, not edit.

10:02 <@Ana> otherwise very interesting stuff stays in discussions only…

10:02 <@Peterfuchs> I think a VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... Symptom wiki would be a perfect addition to this project

10:03 <@Ana> but it already is Wiki (with less options)

10:03 < angela> indeed :)

10:03 < angela> you want to add more terms to the glossary Ana?

10:04 <@Ana> there were things that were discussed, peter was sending links, which could be added… also adila, alejo and stevan were introducing people and events as key to discussions (examples), but it would be good to write some of conclusions in terms of dictionary - as Andreja's proposal of 40 years etc..

10:05 <@Ana> hi stevan, talking on your comment that glossary entries are too clinical, i had the idea to enchance Wiki…

10:05 < angela> well we can always add more to the Links page

10:05 < angela> (here is the link to yesterday's morning session by the way: http://victims.labforculture.org/site/debate/transcript-20080519-1)

10:06 <@Ana> adila was there too

10:06 <@Peterfuchs> Maybe people could add their own version to a Wiki- Since the difference between a wiki, and the current glossary is that a wiki can be improved by many people

10:07 < angela> yes

10:07 <@Ana> yes

10:07 < pike> no

10:07 < angela> i was waiting for you pike ;)

10:07 <@Ana> we all were

10:07 < pike> it depends on the wiki. for most wiki's you need to be a amember to edit.

10:08 <@Ana> so you register…

10:08 <@Peterfuchs> yes, I mean not to create a free for all wiki, but at least ask the particpants to contribute

10:08 < pike> in wikipedia (or parts of it) anyone can edit, but it's rare .. and they do have problems with that, especially on controversial issues

10:08 <@Peterfuchs> which is much more then a single perspective glossary

10:09 <@Ana> that was the original idea, but it turned out that texts and interviews only were having a mass of topics to define, so it would be good to make it a work in progress

10:09 <@Ana> i know… but then each topic can be own symposium

10:09 Peterfuchs puts up his scholar glasses and starts to give a 3 hour lecture on Encyclopedias

10:10 <@Ana> ha ha

10:10 <@Ana> there is the project Dictionary of War i think both Stevan and Alejo know about it…

10:10 <@Ana> http://dictionaryofwar.org/

10:11 <@Peterfuchs> You were faster this time…

10:11 <@Ana> i came from Rijeka by boat at 7, usually i wake up at the moment of the discussion

10:12 <@Peterfuchs> :)

10:12 <@Ana> so how do we make an encyclopaedia. i got an email from lev manovich he is working on similar topics

10:12 < stevan> not a bad idea

10:13 <@Ana> I wanted to let you know about my new big-scale project - I did not had a chance yet to talk about in in Europe - but seems like there may be some points of intersections with labforculture.org stuff - let me know if think anybody you know maybe interested in to talk/work with us..

10:13 <@Ana> this is his email copypasted

10:13 <@Ana> http://lab.softwarestudies.com/2008/05/visualizing-cultural-patterns.html

10:13 <@Peterfuchs> most encyclopaedias are vast colaborative projects, the more people are working them, the better

10:13 <@Ana> clinical stuff and / vs. cultural theory

10:14 <@Ana> so it would be good to work on the “closed” wiki

10:14 <@Peterfuchs> this manovich thingy sound like some cyberpunk idea on summarizing culture

10:14 <@Ana> Alejo what do you suggest?

10:15 < aleij_> hola ana

10:15 <@Ana> well i see the connection - there is data which is available now which is being processed, in this project we were processing data from a psychotrauma clinic

10:16 <@Ana> cultural digestion

10:16 < aleij_> im just arriving phisically here, the coffe is in my hands and im reading through the log, just one min..

10:16 <@Ana> okay

10:17 Peterfuchs finishing cornflakes

10:18 <@Peterfuchs> I am looking forward to the afternoon discussion, that is my favorite topic

10:18 <@Ana> for me the clash between definitions of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in cultural studies, politics and psychotrauma, also topics of traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., are quite interesting, as science has moved much further than a classical psychotherapy while the interpretation still stays on some myth formats of freud and sucessors

10:18 <@Ana> no news? you know where it comes from? sailors say it.

10:19 <@Peterfuchs> Ana, for me it is interesting how the “role” of culture is defined in this process, and any other similar process

10:20 <@Ana> as a representational mode of science

10:20 <@Ana> but if you take the XX century; op-art, cinetic, new media it is indeed a science illustration

10:21 <@Peterfuchs> I am living in a world where culture is no longer defined to be a elite form of passtime for bourgeoisie, but something much more different

10:21 <@Ana> the philosophical problem of art is: Can art handle complex algorythms?

10:21 <@Peterfuchs> art, first of all, it a representational tool, and therefore model many things

10:22 <@Ana> Can art handle stereochemistry? Can art handle cluster bombs?

10:22 <@Ana> If not - then traditional definition of art

10:23 <@Peterfuchs> What I can see, that art is becoming much more organic within the consiousness of my generation, yet this is somethinng complety different then before

10:23 <@Ana> it is a tool of original inventing without goal (where, then Tesla was a proto artist)

10:23 <@Ana> purposeless science

10:23 <@Peterfuchs> first of all, these people hate to even hear the word “art”

10:24 <@Peterfuchs> I have many discussions running aon the idea of science-art relationship

10:24 <@Ana> allright the science of invention of useless things

10:24 <@Peterfuchs> One of these is going to be published on english

10:25 <@Peterfuchs> art is artificial, not real - artistic science is?

10:25 <@Peterfuchs> not real scienceM

10:25 <@Peterfuchs> ?

10:25 <@Ana> send it. but have you seen much of social and humanistic SCIENCE connection to art? i am more used to see the physics, astrophysics, chemistry…

10:26 <+stevan> theoretical science is also inventing useless things

10:26 <+stevan> much more useless than art

10:26 <@Peterfuchs> I would never say any of these things are useless

10:26 <+stevan> if we talk about practical use

10:26 <@Ana> all right. i give up on the theory of useless. how about purposeless?

10:26 <@Peterfuchs> use has a different definition here

10:27 <@Peterfuchs> it has use and purpose. My art is what I am telling on myself on the outside world

10:27 <@Ana> purpose is different than use… some things have purpose but are useless

10:27 <@Peterfuchs> to*

10:28 <@Ana> whereas mostly useful things are purposeless. this can really distinguish politics and hedonism

10:28 <@Peterfuchs> Once I was told, that the first item ever made purposeless is the Eifel tower in paris - everithing beforehand had a function

10:29 <@Ana> flags have purpose but are useless for example, and nice bath schauma is usefull but purposeless

10:29 <@Peterfuchs> for example - a painting in the 17. century Holland had a function

10:29 <+stevan> it had several purposes: demonstrating the progress of tehcnology, the power of France as nation, etc

10:29 <@Peterfuchs> yes, it was a giant artwork

10:29 <@Peterfuchs> And I think the same Stevan

10:29 <@Ana> political purpose and useless thing (you cannot inhabit it)

10:30 <+stevan> it was just not made in the same representational code as other buildings at the time in Paris

10:30 <@Peterfuchs> Ana, they have temporary usefulness in this sense, later it will gain antroplogical

10:30 <@Ana> but if data is politicised whats wrong with aestheticising them?

10:31 <@Peterfuchs> thats a special point, Ana

10:32 <@Peterfuchs> aestheticising can hardly be disconnected from a political will, or whatever

10:32 aleij_ strives to get a hold on few of the many interesting topics, you people write fast

10:32 <+stevan> but, to get back to the previous point you made Ana, perhaps a critical dictionary would be more accurate to do than an encyclopaedia

10:32 <+stevan> anyway, we need and exchange language

10:33 <+stevan> example for different use of terms: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to [God]self” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

10:33 <@Ana> yes. critical dictionary that connects 1.science 2. cult/ural theory 3 examples

10:34 <+stevan> example two: Witmann

10:34 <@Ana> and send it to the publisher

10:34 <@Ana> joking

10:35 <+stevan> we are using a log of terms in quite jargonistic manner

10:35 <@Ana> liek this one to revise http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/martyr

10:36 <@Peterfuchs> the question is, what we would like to get with this data

10:36 <@Ana> yes, but it should be clarified and by that means to connect different disciplines

10:36 <@Ana> connecting disciplines means more of tools and possiblities to change ways of thinking (methodlogically)

10:37 <+stevan> well, we have cultural artefacts to intepret

10:38 <+stevan> there are quite some works related to shaheedIn Arabic etymology the word has three meanings: a faithful witness, one of the 99 names of God, and a person dying for a cause, connoting bearing witness in one's flesh ... as martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ...

10:38 <+stevan> to get to the term Peter was referring to

10:38 <@Peterfuchs> That is what already started to happen here, on the website - but I would like to comment on this at the last day of the discussion

10:38 <@Ana> there is a lots of it there; martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ... attitude for example in theory (author's point)

10:39 <+stevan> like for instance “Snövit” (“Snow White”) carrying a portrait of Hanadi Jaradat

10:39 <@Ana> instead of trying to find the subject - try to find the martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ... in the novel

10:39 <@Ana> and for example using PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... clinical test for the analysis of the Holokaust writing to check out if it is clinically faithfull

10:40 <@Peterfuchs> I am usally telling to “institutions” to build huge bases of data - and become its major source

10:40 <+stevan> Palestinian siucide bomber, that made a big scandal in Sweden and a diplomatic problem with Izreal a couple of years ago

10:40 <@Peterfuchs> this article, for excample bears about 10% of the real meaning of the word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr

10:40 <@Ana> suicideAccording to epidemiological investigations between 1.1% and 4.6% of the population have a suicidal attempt at some point during their life ... is much connected to the fame; take a look at 1968 phenomena; Ian Pallach in Prague, half of people engaged with Crveni Peristil…

10:41 <@Ana> hero-self-victimisationSee dependence projective identification ...

10:41 aleij_ invites 2 irc friends to join this chanel

10:42 <@Ana> with martyrsToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ... you have emotional blackmail.

10:42 <@Ana> I would say: martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ... is a self-victimising person that turns the narrative of victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...: agressor with the visible and recognized act for the purpose of fame

10:43 <+stevan> self-salvation also, and builds him/herself into the foundations of a specific ideology

10:44 <@Ana> covered usually with a reference to metaphysics or religion where there is a promise (virgins in Muslim, eternity in Catholic..)

10:44 <@Ana> yes

10:44 <+stevan> using someone's violent death is very handy to stirr up soci

10:44 <@Ana> and then analysis of the behavoiur of Christ, behaviour of Ian Pallach and a coupleo f popular musicians

10:44 <+stevan> social issues

10:45 <@Ana> yes

10:45 <@Ana> it is catharsic in the old Aristotelian sense. Btw hero and eros arrive from the same word, he was explaining

10:46 <+stevan> i am mostly intereseted in this respect in the technologies of social and political use of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

10:46 <@Ana> which would, again, show up that European civilisation has inbuilt Greek pathetics and melodrama into ways of thinking, even hardly enforced in some disciplines

10:47 <@Ana> there is an interesting thing; the mathematical formula can be made out of huge numbers in terms of language; like xxx soldiers is equal xxxx civilians, xxxxx africans is xxxx europeans (that you can take out of media analysis).

10:48 <@Ana> a nice example is the work by mauricio arrango on this site - if you check it out you will see that USA reports on own victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... much more than on earthquakes and the map of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is quite different than we would think it is currently

10:49 <@Ana> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/artworks/dayafterday

10:49 <@Peterfuchs> yes, about this, we will talk bout hopefully

10:50 <@Ana> Todays news: USA victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., China, Millamar, UK, German, Polish and Sudan - but no others

10:50 <@Peterfuchs> Ana, do you know any other notable news visualization similar to this one?

10:50 <@Ana> actually no. Maybe Alejo knows?

10:52 <@Peterfuchs> No Ana: today news: The Sudanese “Doctors without frontiers warns word that they are scare on food - SINCE ALL AID IS SENT to China and Burma, and thousands of children die in Africa

10:52 <@Peterfuchs> shows how crazy our “attention” are….

10:53 <@Ana> that is why it shows Sudan? but it is really sad that whole africa is not on the map, it is simply not being reported and it has the most massive deaths

10:53 <@Peterfuchs> I know many of them, I will introduce them to the afternoon dicsussion :)

10:53 <@Peterfuchs> I mean the “news” visualization

10:53 < aleij_> Peterfuchs: theres a nice website on this

10:53 < aleij_> let me get it for you

10:53 <@Ana> no, i don't know. o here is alejo

10:53 <@Peterfuchs> I know :D

10:53 < aleij_> (maybe you know it arelady)

10:54 <@Peterfuchs> http://infosthetics.com/

10:54 < aleij_> yes

10:54 < aleij_> also, via one of the developers of processing the software we used for the piece there are many more good examples

10:54 <@Peterfuchs> I hope we will talk aobut this tonight

10:54 < aleij_> ok

10:55 < aleij_> i was trying to think on the hero-martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ... figure on the light of south america

10:55 <@Peterfuchs> any of you are familiar with TED?

10:55 < aleij_> even cebtral america

10:55 <@Ana> yes. but lets get back to the topic. which would be the most accurate scientifically i mean the way to connect social data with art?

10:55 < aleij_> sure

10:55 <@Ana> Ted? no

10:55 < aleij_> big conferences in the USA

10:56 <@Ana> more info pls

10:56 <@Peterfuchs> there is a short video of the distorting efect of news on ted, check it out

10:56 < aleij_> american style, big show but interesting.. market driven

10:56 <@Peterfuchs> ok

10:56 <@Peterfuchs> true Aleij, yet, it has immerse publicity, (the quaility is really bad, still)

10:56 <@Ana> one can mention http://www.theyesmen.org/

10:57 <@Ana> the only thing it is a fake news and rogue http://www.rtmark.com/ but it says a lots that visualisation of any news makes them REAL

10:57 <@Ana> which means - if it is not in visual culture it almost ddnt happen

10:58 <@Ana> stevan, where are you?

10:58 <+stevan> checinkg out the links

10:58 <+stevan> yes, this says a lot about the power of visual imagery to make immediate impact

10:59 <+stevan> which is overtly used in corporate business

10:59 <+stevan> infotainment as well

10:59 < aleij_> oke, i have this thing to say since some 15mins ago

10:59 <@Ana> yes

10:59 < aleij_> let me try to wirte it down

10:59 < aleij_> haha

10:59 <@Ana> ok

10:59 < aleij_> im very slow this morning

10:59 < aleij_> you are like a storm

10:59 < aleij_> heh

11:00 < aleij_> listen, from the south american perspective, the little i can put in here

11:00 <@Peterfuchs> this one: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/248

11:00 < aleij_> so called “data” visualization from “social” sources can be what 2 guerrilla movements have done

11:00 < aleij_> one is the m-19 from colombia

11:01 < aleij_> the other is of course maros with the EZLN in chiapas

11:01 <@Ana> oh my hero!

11:01 < aleij_> its difficult to explain here in detail what is beggining to be a reasearch for me

11:02 < aleij_> but the m-19 is really in my view a strong art enactment

11:02 <+stevan> could you write mor on m-19

11:02 < aleij_> yes

11:02 < aleij_> first thing they do

11:02 < aleij_> put some add in the main newspapers

11:02 < aleij_> like the advertisers

11:02 <@Ana> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_of_April_Movement

11:02 < aleij_> a campaingn of expectative

11:03 < aleij_> m-19 is coming to solve your problems

11:03 < aleij_> etc..

11:03 < aleij_> then they stole the sword of simon bolivar (el libertador)

11:03 < aleij_> bolivar is the figure that chavez follows today

11:03 < aleij_> he gave freedom from the spanish to 5 nations

11:04 < aleij_> 5 nations he wanted to unify

11:04 < aleij_> (as chavez)

11:04 < aleij_> so

11:04 < aleij_> m-19 scrambled the national T.V to send their messages

11:04 < aleij_> they did all kinds of hacks to the state

11:05 < aleij_> from the most powerfull and simbolical to stealing 15.000 rifles from the army

11:05 <@Ana> nice. hacking real space

11:05 < aleij_> yes, with a tunnel

11:05 < aleij_> a friend of mine will do a docu out this part of the story

11:06 <@Ana> wow. there is something really romantic in that

11:06 < aleij_> all is romantic on it :*

11:06 <@Ana> great! send it to Eastern Europea… we need some kick to move

11:06 < aleij_> i can put you in contact with pleasure

11:06 <@Ana> yes

11:06 < aleij_> he lives in france and had done stuff for arte

11:07 < aleij_> great person belive me

11:07 <@Ana> but i was thinking on one thing here - engieered news, fictional news (from Orson Welles to Atlas Group) that is where culture was more active in ways of representing; using ways of representaiton to represent missing data or reconstructed data

11:07 <@Ana> great!

11:08 <@Peterfuchs> I am colaborating with a group here in Budapest, who were influenced by them. After spending 3 years there.

11:08 <@Peterfuchs> In Cloumbia and Venezuela

11:08 <@Ana> columbia?

11:09 < aleij_> is better with 2 o colombia

11:09 <@Peterfuchs> they are called “fourth republic of Hungary”

11:09 <@Ana> haha

11:09 <@Peterfuchs> but heir website is on Hungarian

11:09 < aleij_> anyway let me see it plis

11:09 <@Peterfuchs> http://negyedikkoztarsasag.hu/

11:10 < aleij_> about representation, i can think of the experiment they are doing in some days here in switzerland in CERN

11:10 <@Peterfuchs> they move more people then any other group here altogether

11:10 <@Ana> you have a really strange language i see in this URL

11:10 < aleij_> the clashing protons experiment to simulate the big.bang

11:10 < aleij_> there was this conference in transmediale by otto roessler

11:11 <@Ana> you said that for hungarian language, alejo?

11:11 <@Ana> Hungarian language is the clashing protons experiment to simulate the big.bang

11:11 < aleij_> haha

11:11 <@Peterfuchs> no, on experiemnts

11:11 <@Ana> aha

11:11 < aleij_> irc

11:11 < aleij_> aia aiii

11:11 <@Ana> yeap

11:12 <@Ana> i lost what the the clashing protons experiment to simulate the big.bang refers to it sounds interesting

11:12 < aleij_> im still in data representation and media making it REAL

11:12 <@Ana> representation = execution?

11:12 < aleij_> so, the scientist claims that theres no way to sense if they create a black hole

11:13 < aleij_> hence big danger to eliminate earth and some part of the universe with this expermients

11:13 <@Peterfuchs> yes, I am familiar with that discussion

11:13 < aleij_> so

11:13 < aleij_> the point is

11:13 < aleij_> uh,mmmm

11:14 < aleij_> is a question on what is real

11:14 < aleij_> sorry

11:14 <@Ana> beng?

11:14 < aleij_> i got blown

11:15 < aleij_> otto calls on benevolence, on ways to stop such an experiment…

11:15 <@Peterfuchs> “he died before he could share the Ultimate Truth with us”

11:15 < aleij_> hehe

11:16 <@Ana> it always happens like that or we are prompt to believe but it can be a part of hte master narrative of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... (did Christ managed to say?)

11:16 <@Peterfuchs> lol, Ana

11:16 < aleij_> i think its fundamental for the myth to be

11:17 <@Peterfuchs> it is, indeed

11:17 <@Peterfuchs> a myth with all expalined is nio longer one

11:17 <@Peterfuchs> explained*

11:18 < aleij_> now, “Belivve in me” theres a chance we alter reality with out thoughts

11:19 <@Ana> the way it actually works is it defended to the death instead of giving proofs?

11:20 < aleij_> theres no REAL if we dont add that portion of belief anyways… thats where im stuck with the question of “visualization” of the “real” in ana's question

11:21 <@Ana> mean visualised is existing? that is the only ground of visual studies

11:21 Peterfuchs puts up a metaphysic proof chemosuit

11:21 < aleij_> thats why i bring in the notion of the big experimet that can only be proved in hawkings vrs roessler's theories

11:22 <@Peterfuchs> yes, thats make this question quite urging

11:22 <@Ana> but hos do you incorporate “arts” into the field which is visual studies (before it was rather the other way around)?

11:22 <@Peterfuchs> which one of the is the right? If riessler, we will never know

11:23 < aleij_> interestingly enough i heard and met otto roessler in a big artistic context, transmediale and the xxxxx conference

11:24 <@Peterfuchs> The main point for me is: arts are no longer a distinctive filed, it become: (hard to describe)

11:24 < aleij_> yes, im not really surprised with that

11:24 <@Ana> the question of the The i think is the matter of the experiment i was trying to intorduce (even being useless or purposeless) as the rest is propaganda

11:25 <@Ana> and advertising (sorry for forgettingAmnesia is the partial or total inability to recall past experiences; may be of organic or emotional origin (Sadock, 2003) ... again the neo-liberal parts of my existence)

11:25 <@Ana> somehow i don't fit in the neolib market it seems, though i am completely fine with totalitarizmus

11:26 < aleij_> but, there was also a moment this morning when i think Peterfuchs talked about social groups i relate to so called hackers or squatters that reject the word art

11:26 <@Peterfuchs> Ana, I will have to send a text of mine to you on this topic

11:26 < aleij_> im also tired with that contestatarian position

11:26 <@Peterfuchs> yes Aleij

11:27 <@Ana> i am having problems with them as they are re-defening all in the LIFESTYLE

11:27 <@Peterfuchs> no, Ana

11:27 <@Peterfuchs> there are few exections

11:27 <@Peterfuchs> expections

11:27 <@Ana> yes? which ones?

11:27 <@Ana> if the anarchy would be what squatters define it is - it is a hallucinant politics not the one of the reality

11:28 <@Peterfuchs> I am working with tyrell corporation now, from hungary, which is

11:28 <@Ana> also with arts… too much of mushrooms

11:28 <@Peterfuchs> I am planning to make a major exhibition on “hacker heroes” in the comming years

11:28 <@Ana> Dark Scavenger?

11:29 <+stevan> making a major exhibition on those who detest the word art?

11:29 <@Ana> i wasn't talking on hackers but squatters (rich kids in squatts that make all radical things into a mere lifestyle as probably their mothers were reading Vogue)

11:29 <@Ana> well good point stevan!

11:30 <@Peterfuchs> it will be such an exhibition also :D

11:30 <@Ana> Che Guevarra - Rudolf Valentino of Communism

11:30 < aleij_> jaime bateman

11:30 < aleij_> or richard stallman

11:30 < aleij_> ?

11:31 < aleij_> stallman is like evangelizating south america

11:31 <@Ana> yes cute guy

11:31 <@Ana> LISP?

11:31 < aleij_> sorry for my bad english there

11:31 < aleij_> GNU

11:31 < aleij_> the GPL license

11:32 <@Peterfuchs> Pirate bay

11:32 < aleij_> thats strong and should be replicated

11:32 <@Ana> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_Machines

11:32 < aleij_> click!

11:33 <@Ana> click click. i have problem bookmarking from this irc i went to check out bookmarks from prevous sessions and was laughing to Peter finding Rade Koncar link

11:33 < aleij_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_stallman

11:33 <@Peterfuchs> :D

11:33 <@Ana> looking like guru makes you guru

11:33 < aleij_> yes, that was a new tram line somewhere

11:34 <@Peterfuchs> yes, the electric company

11:34 <@Ana> fridge!

11:34 < aleij_> yes, agree, new evangelist for a full of hungry belivers continent, calculate that

11:34 <@Ana> lifestyle is sold, not the product in the n-l ecc

11:35 < aleij_> let me show you hes retouched image

11:35 <@Ana> it is about a total story, not a thing

11:35 <@Ana> thats why it is useless but having a purpose

11:35 <@Ana> to induct you to the “utopia”

11:36 < aleij_> http://dev.null.org/scrapbook/2007/0326_stallman.jpg

11:36 <@Peterfuchs> I hate artworks, ie. the useful ones

11:36 <@Peterfuchs> which can be sold

11:36 <@Ana> yes. you know the problem with dealing with bin landen was he is handsome to most of women

11:36 <@Peterfuchs> and bought

11:36 <@Ana> this is sick totally! and it gets like that into the public reception?

11:37 <@Ana> no more dictators with beards and moustaches…

11:37 <@Ana> and pipes…

11:38 <@Ana> peter, artworks that can be sold are still useless but purposive, you buy them and you can do nothing with them

11:38 <@Peterfuchs> you can give away the focus from good things. I am usually saying the gravest danger to art is the commonplace what it had been before

11:39 <@Ana> master narrative? white, male, Western, commercial and full of melodrama

11:39 <@Peterfuchs> oil, canvas

11:39 <@Peterfuchs> public sculpture

11:39 Peterfuchs cries

11:40 <@Ana> well, don't quite understand the need for that. i thought when i was a kid that people buy oils on canvas to decenter their views from ugly views they have on windows

11:40 <@Ana> but good view is working better with me

11:41 <@Peterfuchs> I have just sent a text to you on this

11:41 <@Ana> yes, i've seen, i read it after the bla-blah here. because i need to remind on the dictionary

11:42 <+stevan> but, as long as the work has an author who signs it, there is someone who profits from its public circulation

11:42 <@Ana> i would like it to be something as a start for the research base

11:42 < aleij_> about the dictionary i think is good it arrives is some way to make a crossroad with the dictionary of war

11:43 <@Ana> meaning the name? haven't seen much profit there except psychological consolidation of wounded ego

11:43 <@Peterfuchs> good idea Aleij_

11:43 <@Ana> would be good. i talked with florian schneider to unite them somehow somewhere

11:43 < aleij_> oke

11:43 < aleij_> you are ahead certainly

11:43 <@Ana> but then the interface should enable that

11:43 < aleij_> i was going to propose that

11:43 < aleij_> sure

11:43 <+stevan> this is much wider topic, than the war

11:43 <@Ana> yes, but they don't use wiki but real meetings

11:44 <@Ana> ups meetings in real

11:44 < aleij_> stevan: have you seen some of the presentations there in teh dictionary of war?

11:44 <@Peterfuchs> lets make a wiki together

11:44 <@Ana> yes. lets make a wiki together!

11:44 <+stevan> no, i haven't

11:44 < aleij_> is wide

11:44 <@Ana> thy have been in novi sad the last time

11:45 <@Ana> martha, andreja and geert were there

11:46 < aleij_> http://dictionaryofwar.org/en-dict/concept/Sound_Weapon for one example

11:46 <@Ana> but this dictionary should be called POST-WAR

11:46 <+stevan> they have been using a principle of simply comissioning texts, and debating after the fact, while we could do the reverse of that and start from terms that we disagree upon

11:47 < aleij_> yeap, considering the diff perspectives of life we have that would be a good way to begin IMO

11:47 <@Ana> yes, that is what i think as well.

11:47 < aleij_> im so far learning a lot from you all, you make my irc life better :)

11:48 < aleij_> so i head to play with my kid, tomorrow im travelling again for 2 weeks :S

11:48 < aleij_> see you this afternon

11:48 <@Ana> yes. build up base. a good solution is i have seen the Pristas is doing with a dictionary - they make an article at the time and publish in newspapers in the area (Maska, TkH… ) but once you publish it it is finished

11:49 <@Ana> me too. quite interesting seminar sessions

11:49 <@Ana> where do you go Alejo?

11:49 <@Peterfuchs> see you

11:49 <@Ana> see ya!

11:49 < aleij_> (should have said “my” kid cause im really “his”)

11:49 < aleij_> ana heading to france then to saas fee to EGS

11:50 < aleij_> but i will be online

11:50 < aleij_> as much as i can

11:50 < aleij_> irc is my secondlife anyhow

11:50 <@Ana> great. if you find something interesting report to us :)

11:50 <@Ana> i love it too much more than forums

11:50 < aleij_> yes no doubt, want to come to saas fee?

11:50 <@Ana> yes

11:50 < aleij_> we email then

11:51 <@Ana> but we could do a meeting in real. and a presentation. stevan? peter?

11:51 <@Ana> in columbia : )

11:51 <@Peterfuchs> whereever

11:51 <+stevan> that is not difficult to do

11:51 < aleij_> colombia is possible in 2009 i hope

11:51 <@Peterfuchs> we are neighbours

11:52 <@Ana> yeees.

11:52 < aleij_> i will be working for getting some swiss funds

11:52 < aleij_> will see

11:53 < aleij_> oke, see you this afternoon, bon ap

11:53 <@Ana> yes. and we are having a nice chat without topics… with coffee

11:54 <@Peterfuchs> I have to go too soon, see you in the afternoon

11:54 <@Ana> me too. see you in afternoon sess

11:54 <+stevan> ok, by

11:54 <@Ana> bye

Our afternoon debate starts at 18:00 GMT+2 title: No News, Good News!