Participants: Sezgin Boynik, Stevan Vukovic, Tina Peraica.
Moderated by Peter Fuchs.

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> I think Tina we can start, and the others later join in

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> hi Sezgin

18:03 < sezgin> Type your text here …hi peter

18:03 <+tina> let start

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> ok

18:04 <+tina> what about reconciliation. Is it possible

18:05 <+tina> there are to many different approcahes to this topic. the most usually one is how to resolve the conlict

18:06 <@PeterFuchs> Tina, I reckon you are working with war veterans from the balkan wars. What is reconciliation in this context? Or to put the question in a different way, is this reconciliation is different one form others we might experience?

18:07 <+tina> the problem with our veterans is that they don't have opportunity for reconcilliation.

18:07 <@PeterFuchs> hi Stevan

18:08 <+Stevan> hi, sorry for being late… some technical problems..

18:08 <+tina> i.a. we only have one side of the conflict

18:08 <+Stevan> which is?

18:08 <@PeterFuchs> you mean your local one?

18:08 <+tina> they side, yes local one

18:09 <@PeterFuchs> We have started to talk about war veterans

18:09 <@PeterFuchs> their reconciliation

18:09 <@PeterFuchs> and this is a problem in your work?

18:10 <+tina> in some war are some serbian people are comming back. but, situation is terrible because no one work with this two part in conflict

18:10 <@PeterFuchs> is it specific to the balkan conflict, or happens anywhere else?

18:11 <+tina> in our psychotherapy work we try to finish the conflict immaginary. finish with your self. but the angry is somethimes big. this situation is the same everywhere

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, even in the popular culture, we have portayal of this effect, I mean war veterans PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ..., take the post-vietnam veteran syndrome as an example

18:13 <+tina> i don't think that war veterans which are in some program have so big difficultes. Bigger have those that are not in treatment

18:13 <+tina> you, know - local people

18:14 <+tina> in Croatia we have so call peace reintegration. but that is not possible without professionals.

18:16 <+tina> where are the others?

18:16 <@PeterFuchs> As our main topic is the cultural effect of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ..., could it be possibnle, that culture would help your work somehow?

18:17 <@PeterFuchs> for example literature. Stevan's text on VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... site can be connected to this notion of reconcilliation, yet he approaches the subject from a different view, the notion of witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ..., the possiblility to write “out” a testemony

18:17 <@PeterFuchs> and it's immposbility

18:17 <+tina> I think yes. trThe testemony are great opportunity

18:18 <@PeterFuchs> and could be able to help others?

18:18 <+tina> some of our war veternas written books with they testemony. that books help to other also

18:19 <+tina> as Anna Franc book. I think that book provide ahelp for many jewish people

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> In the case of Primo Levi, (who for a long time was the only HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... author to be allowed to print in my country) it was somehow not relieving to form a testemony

18:20 <@PeterFuchs> yes, and it has a much larger cultural impact then many of the other testemonies

18:21 <+tina> yes, diary form is always self-helpSelf-therapy or self-help or self-improvement refers to self-guided improvement - economically, intellectually, or emotionally — most frequently with a substantial psychological or spiritual basis ... therapy. As blogs

18:21 <@PeterFuchs> Stevan, what do you think about the process reconcilliation in the case of Levi, or in a broader aspect, the Levi Syndrom?

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> hmm, blogs, which are open to read by anyone? without moderation?

18:22 <+tina> where I can see something about Levi

18:22 <+Stevan> it depends on how we define reconciliation

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primo_Levi

18:23 <+tina> there is a explanation of self therapySelf-therapy or self-help or self-improvement refers to self-guided improvement - economically, intellectually, or emotionally — most frequently with a substantial psychological or spiritual basis ... at the dicctionary

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/glossary/self-therapy

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> this one

18:24 <@PeterFuchs> What is your definition on it, Stevan?

18:24 <+Stevan> I was just checking out the glosary

18:25 <+tina> as a ventilation, there a good. One of my patients in his blogs written for a first time his emotion. he was in professional soldier. macho men. on the blog for the first time he spoke about his emotion

18:25 <+Stevan> it seems quite linked to some communicative community

18:26 <+Stevan> but is defined very narrowly, clinically

18:27 <+tina> about fear, sadness, death. but there are not always like that - soldiers. Our psychotherapy groups have taht goal - open they emotion

18:27 < nibbit> interesting point of view that - soldiers

18:27 <@PeterFuchs> if reconciliation can be happen on blogs, what about the comments on the very blog. Since blogs are very different from book - you can react as a reader at will

18:28 <+tina> maybe, not only soldier - balcan man

18:29 <+tina> what about the comments on the very blog? I don't understain

18:29 <+Stevan> a lot of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... suffer not only from not being able to express their emotions, but also from not finding a place in the society, which tries to erase traces of horrible events

18:29 <+tina> thrue, stevan

18:30 <+Stevan> in relation to soldiers, they are sent to kill, but when they come back, they are treated as murderers

18:30 <+Stevan> and usually there is a large public consent on sending soldiers somewhere to use military force

18:30 <+tina> not always. but, they have they own problems with that. guilty

18:30 <@PeterFuchs> that people can comment right there, you as a blogger, the one who does the reconcillation can get negative feedback, comments

18:31 <+sezgin> and maybe not openly as a murderers but 'unwanteds' in modern society

18:31 <+tina> yes they are unwanted.

18:31 < Johnny> “used” people

18:31 <+Stevan> they are the 'bad conscience' of the society

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> I am thinking about soldier testemonies now

18:31 <@PeterFuchs> Kurt Vonnegut as an example

18:31 <+tina> and people withot power

18:32 <@PeterFuchs> or Joseph Heller

18:32 <+tina> I think power games are dangerous. what after war. how to live after that

18:33 <@PeterFuchs> does moders society is not ready to cope with this effect?

18:33 <@PeterFuchs> I mean for example fascist society does so?

18:33 <+sezgin> but fascism is modern political thought

18:33 <+tina> but society don't need them any more. they were good then, and now they are balast

18:34 <@PeterFuchs> it is, indeed Sezgin, and I feel that it lurks around even in Democratic societies

18:34 <@PeterFuchs> can someone be proud of “our boys”?

18:35 <@PeterFuchs> take Iraq vetrans as an example

18:36 <+tina> different type of power are in piece society.

18:36 <+Stevan> or just soldiers from US serving in Iraq

18:36 <+tina> they are profesionals, payed for killing

18:37 <@PeterFuchs> is these a positive example to that kind of reconciliation that you are doing Tina? Like a situation when the society was able to cope

18:37 <+tina> time have to past

18:37 <@PeterFuchs> Tina, some are, but the majority are realy poor ghetto people who goes to the army to escape the enviroment

18:38 <+tina> I know. Some our people are rigth now in Afganistan

18:38 <@PeterFuchs> Army is paying their education if they serve enough time. A deadly trap

18:38 <+Stevan> In the film from the last year Battle for Haditha at one place one of the to-be murderers in a retaliation ofr a roadside bomb, explains that if he would try to leave the army, after being already wounded, he would get only 300 dolars a moth of pension, so he is forced to stay by finantial means

18:38 < Johnny> but these people from ghetto don't come back - others do… that make careers as they fathers and grandfathers done serving the country

18:39 <@PeterFuchs> yes, we might have an impression form Hollywood movies about this effect Johnny

18:40 <+tina> some of them have atisocial personality disorder i think. killing for fun

18:40 < Johnny> but sons of generals are sons of generals… you can always recognize them

18:40 <+tina> different situation is when you have war in your own country

18:41 <+Stevan> yes, quite some people are mobilized by force

18:41 <+tina> thrue

18:42 <+Stevan> Like the sad case of Erdemovic, the first person senteced for war crimes in Ex-YU

18:42 <+tina> you don't have opportunity for escape

18:42 <@PeterFuchs> Can you tell a little more on this Stevan?

18:43 <+Stevan> he was forced first to fight for the Croats, then Bosnians, and then Serbs, each of the sides taking his family as hostage. he surrendered himself after escaping Bosnia

18:43 <+tina> surrended to whom

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> UN maybe?

18:44 <+Stevan> I do not know exactly, but to some international authorities with office in Belgrade, asking to be sent to the Hauge

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> and he was sentenced?

18:44 < Johnny> KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... army : )

18:45 <+tina> I was in secondary scholl when the war in Croatia start. that was really chaotic time

18:45 <@PeterFuchs> what about the non-soldeiers? Yes, what is the difference in a civil war situation, or a “home war” situation, when the fighting not taking place on the CNN?

18:45 <+tina> everyone is involve

18:46 <+Stevan> Still overridden with guilt, Erdemović sought out an ABC field reporter and testified on camera about what happened at SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War .... Several days later, Dražen was arrested and charged with crimes against humanity in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), in The Hague. On 29 November 1996. This case was significant in the Tribunal as it was the first application of the defence of duress. Claiming that his life had been threatened

18:46 <+Stevan> in SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ...

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> and reconciallation is collective then?

18:47 <+Stevan> his full name is Drazen Erdemovic, ethnic Croat

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> he surrenderd to the press….

18:47 <+tina> we have a lot of refugiess. light restrictions. a lot of fear. like tomorow don't exist. the reconcilliation in SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ... is imposible

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> sad to hear

18:47 <+tina> not now

18:48 <+tina> I think about reconcilliation in SrebrenicaThe Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak boys and men, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), under the command of General Ratko Mladic' during the Bosnian War ..., not now. it is early for that

18:48 <@PeterFuchs> Stevan, from literally example, how much we know about this in the case of HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ..., and HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... writers? How much time had to pass?

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> Andraje mentioned a “40 years” perios in one of his comments during the forst debate? Why this 2 generation gap?

18:49 <+Stevan> the memory is always being trasferred to the next generations… the question is how the society deals with that as a community

18:50 <+tina> like in the imigration sample. first generation are most confused

18:50 <+Stevan> there is no “expiry date”

18:51 <+tina> I think taht we mentioned that a little in sunday session

18:51 <+Stevan> if public discourse is supressed, the next generations may be even more traumatized than the ones that have directly suffered

18:52 <+Stevan> one has actively to deal with the HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... or any other genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ...

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, Stevan, thats what I can also confirm based on my own experience, take the reconcillation of Trianon treaty or even the HUngarian HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... as an example - no public discurse, no reconcillation

18:52 <@PeterFuchs> in both cases

18:53 <+tina> that the reason why we need project like this one is. to open the dialog. talk about that

18:53 <+tina> conflict resolution and reconcilliation need bothh side, or public, or only intention

18:53 <+Stevan> there quite some artists in Bosnia who are actively working in this issue

18:54 <+sezgin> I can also give the example of Armenian genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... which is very silence topic in Turkey's society

18:54 <@PeterFuchs> we could even collect unspoken reconcillation processes here. What is the status of the ex-Jugoslav states in this regard?

18:54 <@PeterFuchs> yes, take Aremenia as an example

18:55 <+tina> peace reintegration i.e. silence

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> and silence does not help…

18:55 <+sezgin> but what heppen after 19 January 2007 when Armenian intellectual Hrant Dink was killed in the day light of istanbul is also very important

18:55 < Johnny> silence killz

18:55 <+tina> not at all. every day some small conflict in that area

18:56 <+sezgin> here in this portal i guess we are talking on traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... in reference to contemporary art

18:56 <+Stevan> we should

18:57 <+sezgin> or now i will give this example of how contemporary artist from istanbul reffered to murder of hrant dink

18:57 <@PeterFuchs> yes, please share this with us

18:57 <+sezgin> suddenly there was big discussion in art scene about the armenians, hrant dink, and genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ...

18:58 <+sezgin> first time in such a open way that even artists exhibit the works like '2007-1915 genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... continues…'

18:58 <+sezgin> which before in turkey would be impossible to imagine

18:58 < Johnny> is that connected to the Armenian massacre Neery Melkonian refers in interview http://victims.labforculture.org/site/interviews/not-a-joy-ride

18:59 <+sezgin> it is also massacre which diamnda gallas devoted her last album

18:59 < Johnny> The 1915 GenocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ...GenocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group … of Armenians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide, which began towards the end/fall of the Ottoman Empire, culminated in the systematic cleansing of an entire minority-ethnic population from their ancestral homeland of 2,000 years (eight provinces in eastern Anatolia) through a number of means, which included: mass killings, sta

19:00 <+sezgin> so after murder of dink, what happens is that intellectuals and artists started open process of reconciliation with armenian population

19:01 <+sezgin> and it had big support from populist burgeoisie intellectuals which usually prefer to be silent about this issues

19:01 <+sezgin> reason of this is little bit complicated

19:01 <@PeterFuchs> it seems Adorno was not right when stated: “After Auschwitz it is barbaric to write poetry”, your example is an illustration

19:02 <+sezgin> this breakin the silence in very noisy way also can help ti silence something else

19:02 <@PeterFuchs> can you maybe give some basic outlines on the reason Sezgin?

19:03 <+sezgin> what is silencing in this case is noise of Kurdish population in Istanbul

19:03 <+sezgin> since all the migration waves not anymore the Kurds are minority in Istanbul as the Armenians were

19:04 <+tina> stevan, what about minories in serbia?

19:05 <+sezgin> and as “proleteriat, dark and terrorist” they are even more unwanted then armenians who were more rich and civilized…

19:06 <+sezgin> so this is reason why we have to be carefull when reconciliation is supported by burgeoisie intellectuals

19:06 <+sezgin> for them now armenians are someone who we have to support because they are now spice of multiculturalism

19:07 <+sezgin> but the real spices which are a lot around like kurds are to bitter

19:07 <@PeterFuchs> do you think that burgeoisie intellectuals lessens the effect of reconciliation anywhere else also?

19:08 < Johnny> like gipsey minorities EU; a funpark…

19:08 <@PeterFuchs> which is general statement aginst them from the left

19:08 <+sezgin> no i am saying that burgeoisie intellectuals are happy to reconcile when their economical profits are important

19:09 <+Stevan> they just provide with more positive social and cultural representation for those they opress, but then they exploit that as well clearing their own consciousness

19:09 <+Stevan> like we had in Serbia a campaing for positive discrimination of Roma people, but those who profited mostly from that were the designers of the campaign

19:10 <@PeterFuchs> interesting. Can you name some projets which were succesful despite this effect?

19:10 <+sezgin> for example there was need for RAF to show openly how Schleyer had such a connections with Nazi's

19:10 <+sezgin> otherwise this reconciliation would not happen

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <@PeterFuchs> which really helped reconcile despite the intention of burgeoisie intellectuals

19:11The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ... <+sezgin> yes because it was forced

19:12 <+sezgin> there is lot of example of this

19:12 <+sezgin> and what about Flick collection?

19:12 <@PeterFuchs> can you tell us a little about it?

19:15 <+sezgin> i just tell that now, beacsue of such a big aura of contemporary art industry it is impossible for flick to reconcile with his past

19:15 <+sezgin> i mean it is impossibel to force him to reconcile

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.friedrichchristianflick-collection.com/

19:16 <+sezgin> there he has guards as beuys, sol le wit, kuspit,…etc

19:16 <@PeterFuchs> it is like giving a nominal sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... to the public in form of art

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Flick - find some information here

19:17 <@PeterFuchs> in the contraversy section

19:18 <@PeterFuchs> it is good that no matter how mush he pays, he cant erase a wikipedia article

19:19 <+sezgin> yes but it was big scandal how he menaged to open such a big collection in berlin before four years

19:20 <@PeterFuchs> can you name any example, in which reconcilation was succesful true artistic projects?

19:20 <+sezgin> i think that main problem in thinking about contemporary art and culture with psychological terms is that it always ends up in some kind of normalization

19:21 <+sezgin> and this normalization always has some latent or manifested connection with capitalism

19:22 <+sezgin> in the end any anomaly is reduced to psychopatology

19:22 <@PeterFuchs> assuming that “art” is a lapdog of the burgeoisie class, and still is, but you mentioned that in Turkey it was succesful to initiate a dialog, a process, what about the Serbian situation

19:22 <@PeterFuchs> ?

19:23 <+sezgin> stevan what about serbian situation?

19:23 <+Stevan> Well, Sezgin's text is about that, partly

19:23 <@PeterFuchs> at Kontekst gallery

19:23 <+sezgin> yes partly is about that

19:24 <+Stevan> Yes, that is the only real traumatic point that was opened by art practitioners in the last years

19:25 <+Stevan> What we had mostly so far was that art was producing “screen memories”, false memories of the past

19:25 <+Stevan> that could somehow 'normalize' the situation

19:25 <@PeterFuchs> when I heard about his inncident, I immediety thought that ANY hungarian gallerist would give half of his arm to have an exhibition attacked - becouse of the publicity the event gets

19:25 <@PeterFuchs> which is really sad

19:26 <+Stevan> any Hungarian gallerist can exhibit red stars and has his place attacked for exhibiting “symbols of power”

19:26 < Johnny> is that the point of speaking of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... too? they get into news easily?

19:26 <@PeterFuchs> what was the public oppininon in serbia after the attack?

19:27 <+sezgin> yes i remember when i was in budapest and trying to collect communist books they were all attacking me and saying that i can go to garbages if i want that

19:27 <+Stevan> the general public oppinino was divided in relation to which political party they stick to more, the pro-European option, led by the Democrats, or the

19:27 <+Stevan> right wingers, who claim to defend the 'Serbian KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ...'

19:28 <+Stevan> but it was really the minority of people that has realised that this is really a taboo, that noone dared to address for decades

19:28 <@PeterFuchs> (sezgin I can help you with that)

19:29 <+Stevan> the positive thing is that there is a group of pople under a common name “Workers in culture”, trying to initju

19:29 <+Stevan> ]]

19:29 <+Stevan> initialize debates around that, but, I was looking now, no material in English yet available

19:30 <+Stevan> for those who can read Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian here is a link http://radniciukulturi.net

19:31 <@PeterFuchs> and this exhibition was the first such attempt - I neam artistic - to deal with the subject?

19:31 <+Stevan> a first collective attempt

19:31 <+Stevan> that went public

19:32 <+sezgin> problem with RUK , and problem with many article in this newspaper is same as i told before what happen after the murder of armenian journalist

19:33 <+sezgin> in turkey they said look we are loosing even last armenian left wing liberal intellectual, we are not modern yet

19:34 <+sezgin> also in the article of d. sretenovic he is not happy that this exhibition was attacked because serbia couldn't pass the exam of being in same level as new york, paris and tokyo!

19:35 <+Stevan> well, he was a director of the local Soros center

19:35 < Johnny> kretenovic

19:35 <+tina> :)

19:35 <+sezgin> and in the all newspaper there is not even one article of kosovar's

19:35 <+sezgin> no one even ask to write and comment the exhibition

19:36 <+sezgin> even me who i was active from the beginning

19:36 <+Stevan> but, if we go back to the very exhibition, it was also showing Kosovar artists as the Others, putting them into a show that was red as a national representation

19:37 <+sezgin> to avoid this curators prefered to use prishtina instead of kosova

19:37 <+sezgin> but this can be also euphemism

19:38 <+sezgin> exhibition is called ' contemporary art scene from prishtina'

19:38 <+Stevan> but, anyway, some issues came up… and that was not a result of anybody's specific intention

19:38 <+Stevan> especially not of curators

19:38 <@PeterFuchs> there were any other exhibition, movie, book, which had the same effect in the ex-Jugoslavian states?

19:39 <+sezgin> i think with this exhibition many issues came up, and also by doing thius exh. curators took big risk

19:40 <+sezgin> (stevan evo da upotrebim priliku dok si jos ovde , iduce nedelje doci cu u bg., ako si tamo hteo bih da se vidimo)

19:40 <@PeterFuchs> can you translate it?

19:41 <+tina> personaly talk

19:41 <+Stevan> a similar event happened at the premiere of Antonio Lauers (Tomislav Gotovacs) last film, produced in Belgrade, it was stopped by right wingers claiming it to be “Ustasha pornography”, which has also raised debates locally and some critical texts, locally in Croatia

19:41 < Johnny> beži bre

19:42 <+tina> naravno

19:42 <+Stevan> the sad point was that it was the right wing people that did mostly profit from that, upgrading their political careers

19:42 <@PeterFuchs> please, turn back to English

19:42 <+sezgin> Yes there is many other examples

19:43 < Johnny> ex-yougoslavs reconcille i see behind language

19:43 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I am one of them, yet they don't know this :D

19:44 <+tina> :)

19:44 <+sezgin> and ironically work which has been destroyed in Odstupanja exhibition had title 'Face to Face'

19:45 <+sezgin> sorry to all of you but today i am short with the time

19:45 <+Stevan> ok, see you in Belgrade

19:45 <+tina> by

19:45 <+sezgin> i have to catch the movie screening which is starting in 15 minute

19:45 <+sezgin> see you tomorrow

19:46 <@PeterFuchs> bye

19:47 < Johnny> mafia business : )

19:47 <@PeterFuchs> so, we have addressed some issues of reconcidation in the Balkans area, yet I am curoius if we could take examples from elsewhere?

19:48 <@PeterFuchs> Another example which comes to my mind - an artwork in significant role in reconciladation the movie Come and See in 1985 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_and_See

19:48 <@PeterFuchs> do any of you know this movie?

19:48 < Johnny> not me

19:48 <+tina> I don't. can you tell us something

19:49 <@PeterFuchs> one of the best war movie ever. It is about mass genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... in Belaruss during the second world war (nazi)

19:50 <@PeterFuchs> but what is really interesting about it is that it was an answer to the movie : Apocalypse now by Francis Ford Coppola

19:51 <@PeterFuchs> becouse the director thought Coppola is a fascist who glorifies violence against the vietnamese

19:51 <@PeterFuchs> and made an exelent movie on genocideGenocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious or national group ... and reconcilledation

19:51 <@PeterFuchs> one of the best movie I ever seen

19:51 <+tina> thrue reconcilliation

19:51 <@PeterFuchs> A must see in this subject

19:54 <@PeterFuchs> I can see that we are running out of time for today. I hope you all enjoyed the today debate, and I am sure we made some fine addition to the subject

19:54 < Johnny> NIght porter : ) a kinky movie where a Nazi soldier and a Jewis girl fall in sexual attraction which is followed by their afterwar seanses. is that reconcilliation as well?

19:55 < Johnny> well its sado-masochismSexual masochism and sexual sadism have a great deal in common besides the experience of pain during the sex act. Both conditions begin in childhood; both are usually chronic ...…

19:55 <@PeterFuchs> We are returning with the follow up questions at 10:00 and then the afternoon dabate starts at 18:00 again.

19:56 <+tina> yes. It was interesting today. Have a nice rest of evening

19:56 <@PeterFuchs> My favoirite: No news, good news!

19:56 <+tina> no stressStress is not a useful term for scientists because it is such a highly subjective phenomenon that it defies definition. The term is in use from 1936 when Hans Selye defined stress as "the non-specific response of the body to any demand for change" ... without news

19:56 <@PeterFuchs> (I will move books to my new apartment all night, the burden of knowledge)

19:57 < Johnny> bye

19:57 <+tina> new apartment, good. bye

19:57 < angela> thanks very much everyone

19:57 <+Stevan> bye

Tomorrow at 10:00 we will follow up with questions if you have any, and the next session will start at 18:00 tomorrow.