Participants: Tihana Jendricko, Sezgin Boynik.
Moderated by: Peter Fuchs.

16:58 <@PeterFuchs> Hi all, escpecially new particpiants, if any, I can see Sezgin Boynik our new guest, welcome

16:58 <@PeterFuchs> We shall start soon

16:59 <@PeterFuchs> With the topic: art and therapy

17:00 <+tihana> Hello all!

17:01 <@PeterFuchs> During the morning session, we were discussing the possiblities of Onlie Pshyterapy

17:01 <@PeterFuchs> If yoi missed it, you can read the transcript on our website

17:01 <@PeterFuchs> later

17:02 <+tihana> Ok, I will check it.

17:02 < angela> here is the link: http://victims.labforculture.org/site/debate/transcript-20080518-1

17:03 <@PeterFuchs> We had a special quest, Eliza, a robot designed to act as an online therapist

17:05 <+tihana> I was just checking few lines from your morning session. The beggining of Eliza's answering.

17:05 <@PeterFuchs> I would like to introduce the today topic with some of my own insight into the subject, and then, we would move to some specific example, like the text of Sezgin on Victims' website

17:08 <@PeterFuchs> Artistic object, to be more exact, a special group of artefacts deals with our memories of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...: monuments. Yet, we can identify many of the art objects as some sort of tool for

17:08 <@PeterFuchs> dealing with victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... memories

17:10 <+tihana> As well as tool or “mean” for dealing with emotions.

17:12 <+sezgin> sorry but i want to as how this discussion supposed to happen

17:13 < PeterFuchs2> sorry I have crached

17:13 < PeterFuchs2> crashed*

17:13 <+sezgin> ok

17:14 < PeterFuchs2> so, I was writing on the specific place of art in dealing with the notion of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

17:14 <+sezgin> is it that peter will moderate the discussion through our texts, or is this free discusiion on topic of victimization in art

17:15 < PeterFuchs2> yes, it is free

17:15 <+sezgin> ok, even better

17:15 < PeterFuchs2> we will talk about the text later

17:15 < PeterFuchs2> now just have a general overview

17:17 < PeterFuchs2> I am curious why the notion of victimization become prelevant in contemporary art, in the sense that we are more tend to erect monument to victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., rather then victors

17:18 <+sezgin> you are right about this, lamentation syndrom is not only visible in contemporary art but also in contemporary politics.

17:19 <+tihana> Maybe partly is has to do with different way of conducting a war - more of collateral victimsSee also: collateral damage, comorbid diagnosis ..., an indirect way of wars.

17:19 <+sezgin> or we have to ask for which victors we have to erect the monuments

17:20 < PeterFuchs2> yes, tihana, yet it might be really interesing how victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., pain and suffering become more and more dominant in art

17:20 < PeterFuchs2> rather then archs of trimph

17:20 < PeterFuchs2> Do any of you know any monuments for victors for example?

17:20 <+sezgin> yes i know

17:21 <@PeterFuchs2> Modernist “partisan” monuments for example

17:21 <+sezgin> i can give example of situationist international's rare exhibition which they organized in 1963 in odense

17:22 <@PeterFuchs2> http://members.chello.nl/j.seegers1/situationist/exhibitions_si.html#top - the one on the bottom?

17:22 <+tihana> Maybe we are not sure who are the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... Closed ones suffering for their loss. Because after we get know the victors better, sometimes their cruelty as well.

17:22 <+sezgin> and there is little scupltures which situationists(who definetely neglected art) erected in memory of anarcist fighters

17:23 <+tihana> Sorry, I meant we are not sure who are the victors.

17:23 <+sezgin> yes one on the bottom

17:24 <+sezgin> vauuw with this mode of discussion is like to be in the ocean of knowledge

17:25 <@PeterFuchs2> I would like to give you a specific example, if I may, the Vietnam memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... in Washington, on the Mall

17:25 <@PeterFuchs2> which is a really interesting monuent

17:25 <+sezgin> and there is famous destruction of vendome column in paris commune which was intiated by courbet himself

17:25 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, good addition

17:26 <@PeterFuchs2> http://www.flickr.com/groups/86976357@N00/ - the original monument, which you might very well known from the media

17:26 <@PeterFuchs2> and an alternate one, close to it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hanneorla/74883435/

17:27 <@PeterFuchs2> I think each of them gives us a really different view of the role of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., and the role of the monument

17:27 <@PeterFuchs2> what do you think about this?

17:28 <+sezgin> can you ntell us more about this monument

17:28 <+sezgin> i don't have any idea about it

17:29 <+tihana> I think first one is more in a “part of life, family” level, a close one, and the second one is a “heroic” level.

17:30 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, and ther is a third one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Soldiers

17:30 <+sezgin> hei i really don't know why we discuss this memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...

17:30 <@PeterFuchs2> which is much more heroic in many sense

17:31 <@PeterFuchs2> it gives us many different aspects of dealing with victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... syndrom, don't you agree Sezgin?

17:31 <+tihana> The second one shows exagerated emotions.

17:33 <+sezgin> just a moment. do you think that this memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... is subversive , or do you think it is one of the typical examples of american fascism?

17:33 <+sezgin> this i can not figure out

17:33 <@PeterFuchs2> 2 memorials (the second and third one are close to each other in artisic sense and location) are two very different narrative on victimization

17:33 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, the later two I think is a perfect example of fascist sculpture

17:34 <@PeterFuchs2> and as Tihana pointed out, the offical (1st) one is much more life, family level

17:36 <@PeterFuchs2> or you have a different view on monumets and victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... syndrom?

17:37 <+sezgin> family + militarism united in multiculturalism = exploatation of fascism in most political correctness

17:37 <+sezgin> that is my idea about this monuments

17:39 <@PeterFuchs2> interesting point, yet, for example, the first monument, made by Maya Lin, the Wall was attaked several times for not being “partiotic” enough

17:40 <@PeterFuchs2> is there any other art strategy to employ then this simple idea, which these monuments convey, can you give an example maybe?

17:40 <+tihana> If a look from a point of view that somebody lost their closed ones, I could accept the first monument. It does not accentuate the political correctness of those deaths, but provides a place for mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ....

17:41 <+sezgin> really! that is very strange. because as i saw now in photos they look more patriotic than many other state supported monuments

17:41 <@PeterFuchs2> Yes, Tihana, actually that was the main element with the Wall, thats why people who were first against it, accepeted it

17:42 <+tihana> And remembering the deceased ones.

17:42 <@PeterFuchs2> Sezgin, many protests were taken against the Wall, to be not patriotic enough, they wanted to tear it down

17:42 <+sezgin> please can you tell more about it. now this is really interesting

17:43 <+tihana> Aferwards, “families” or society could change their point of view who bears the guilt for those deaths.

17:43 <@PeterFuchs2> the pictures does not show, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Ying_Lin here you can see, that this monument is actually half of a hill, (ie. a hill cut in half)

17:43 <@PeterFuchs2> and has no height at all!

17:43 <@PeterFuchs2> it is like a small hole, in fact

17:44 <@PeterFuchs2> with huge list of name - patriotic groups said it is “blashphemous”, disrespectul, becouse it does not gives the dignity to the “heroes”

17:45 <@PeterFuchs2> don't forget, that all the names are in the same size, from the private to the general

17:46 <+tihana> This is giving importance to each them.

17:46 <@PeterFuchs2> and as Tihana pointed out, this has exatly changed the way how people look at the events

17:47 <@PeterFuchs2> thats why the patrioust erected the monument with the 3 soldier and the other one with the nurses

17:47 <@PeterFuchs2> which were “not planned before”

17:47 <+tihana> It seems it was much better or even clever, to give oportunity for everyone to be important.

17:47 <+sezgin> so they were against this 'light' memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...?

17:48 <@PeterFuchs2> but nowadays people accepted the wall much more

17:48 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, they were

17:48 < nibbit> so they organized in the topic: art strategy to employ then this simple idea, which these monuments

17:48 <@PeterFuchs2> basicly yes

17:49 <@PeterFuchs2> the way how portrayed become a strategy for muorning victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

17:49 <+tihana> It is almost as if the people can have some kind of “relationship” or communication with the Wall.

17:50 <@PeterFuchs2> Exatly - you might be well aware that veterans travel there every year and taking the names of their friends and relatives form the wall in a small people

17:50 <+tihana> They could see a Wall as a symbol of their lost ones. Like going to the grave of a lost one.

17:50 <@PeterFuchs2> exactly

17:51 <@PeterFuchs2> and, even more interesting, there is very little palce to do the fascist “salute” things in front of the wall, there is very little place there

17:51 <@PeterFuchs2> so they do it somewhere else

17:53 <+tihana> I suppose it is because this is a place for memories and mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ....

17:53 <@PeterFuchs2> becouse of this effect, I consider this one as an exelent example of “contemporary” memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...

17:54 <@PeterFuchs2> you can see an aerial image here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_Memorial

17:54 <+tihana> I agree, it is a “politicaly-free” memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... (as much it can be).

17:55 <+sezgin> i will give you than one more 'contemporary' and 'light' memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... example

17:56 <+sezgin> it is ' portable aluminium church' which serbian orthodox church just put with helicopters in one of the hills of montenegro before they got independency

17:56 <+sezgin> just to make things sure

17:57 <@PeterFuchs2> and it has immedietly become a place of status quo, right? An artifact you cant touch

17:57 <+sezgin> exactly

17:58 <+sezgin> same as there is a church in center in prishtina, unfinished before 1999

17:58 <@PeterFuchs2> exelent example, makeshit memorials are really has this effect

17:58 <+sezgin> and still stays there like specter, noone knows what to do with it

17:58 <+tihana> Trying to mark the teritory.

17:59 <+sezgin> but i want to come back to this light vietnam memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...

17:59 <@PeterFuchs2> by a psyicical space (the church) and the ritualFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ... of using it also

17:59 <+sezgin> i don't think it is contemporary

17:59 <+sezgin> i think it is more dangerous and has more traps than usual marbe state supported memorials

18:00 <@PeterFuchs2> can you elaborate on this a little more, please?

18:00 <+sezgin> still it has nothing to say about the crimes of american imperialism commited in vietnam

18:00 <+sezgin> it is silence about it

18:01 <+sezgin> if only blasphemy in this work is lightness, than i will say that yes it is blasphemy just because of that

18:02 <+sezgin> because of representing the things which are really heavy and troublesome in 'light' way

18:03 <@PeterFuchs2> interesting point

18:03 <@PeterFuchs2> we usually does not erect monuments for our crimes. On the second thought we do

18:03 <@PeterFuchs2> take the Berlin HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... monument as an example

18:03 <+tihana> This is the dark side of victors. People like to see that “good” wins the “bad”. The same is in fairy tales.

18:04 <+tihana> So even if we put aside politics, some things are simplified for such needs.

18:04 <+sezgin> so that gives the space for 'contemporary cultural nationalism' to heil their liberalism when some stupid texs congressman comment on 'light' nationlism

18:04 <+sezgin> texs= texas

18:06 <+sezgin> than we have usual scenario again; liberals versus conservatives! and as usual the real problem of nationalism is hidden for one more time

18:06 <@PeterFuchs2> I am tring to find an alternate memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ..., comissioned by a US artist in the nineties, which was portable and consisted 3 million names, the vietnemese victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:07 <@PeterFuchs2> but can not

18:08 <@PeterFuchs2> seems to me, that you think that the US has not finished to face its traumas by now

18:08 <@PeterFuchs2> which I agree with

18:08 <+tihana> Me too.

18:08 <@PeterFuchs2> I wonder what monment they might make for their nowdays wars

18:08 < nibbit> the same is hidden for one as an indirect way of artefacts deals with our memories of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...: monuments for their nowdays wars

18:08 <+tihana> As well as many other societies.

18:09 <+sezgin> recently i watched the movie of peter davies from 1974 called 'hearts and minds' about vietnam war

18:10 <@PeterFuchs2> In the former Yugoslavian region, how does this happens? Are there any monuments by now? Official or unofficial?

18:11 <+sezgin> there is a scene in a movie where american general is talking about eastern philosophy as something very different than western life philosophy

18:11 <+sezgin> according to general in eastern philosophy there is not so much feelings expressed

18:12 <+sezgin> and he says that easterns (vietnams of course) rarely cry, or rarely they are very happy

18:13 <+sezgin> director of the movie is than juxstaposing this generals lecture on eastern philosophy with a shot of one funeral scene in vietnaqm

18:14 <@PeterFuchs2> the movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071604/

18:14 <+sezgin> yes that one

18:15 <@PeterFuchs2> won am Oscar too

18:15 <@PeterFuchs2> http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3391643/Hearts.and.Minds.(1974).Won.Oscar.for.Best.Documentary - some more information

18:17 <@PeterFuchs2> So, back to my previous question, are there any similar strategies could be observed in post-Yugoslav context?

18:18 <+sezgin> did you hear about bruce lee monument in mostar

18:18 <@PeterFuchs2> no

18:19 <@PeterFuchs2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Bruce_Lee_in_Mostar - this one, I assume

18:19 <+tihana> In Zagreb, during the war, families formed a wall made of bricks. Each brick had a name of one deceased person. It was made spontaneously in front of UNPROFOR center. It was named “Wall of tears”. Just an association I have now.

18:20 <@PeterFuchs2> interesting. But officialy, any monuments were erected?

18:20 <+tihana> People lighted candles there. There were also some official monuments. But I am not so familiar with.

18:20 <+sezgin> bruce lee monument was initiated by De/construction of Monument project which was actually two year project of Sarajevo Center for Contemporary Art

18:21 <@PeterFuchs2> this wall of tears is really like a personal memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ..., and somehow reminds me to the small leaflets which you could see all accros Yougoslavis used to be, with a religious symbol and the name of the decesed

18:22 <@PeterFuchs2> which I have not seen anywhere else

18:22 <+sezgin> and in mostar city they errected the monument of bruce lee, because they couldn't find anyone which would please all the three nationalities

18:22 <@PeterFuchs2> very interesting, that Bruce Lee could be the only one…

18:22 <+sezgin> but all the ex-yugoslavs adores bruce lee

18:23 <+tihana> Yes, as a way of looking for “lost” persons, usually dead but not identified. And a way of remembering.

18:23 <@PeterFuchs2> yet, it is hardly a war monument, or not?

18:23 <@PeterFuchs2> I mean the Bruce Lee statue

18:24 <+sezgin> But unfortunately Bruce Lee monument is not in public space anymore, because it is destroyed by vandals

18:24 <+sezgin> no no, it is nothing to do with war, even bruce lee liked to fight

18:24 <@PeterFuchs2> it has no personal identification

18:24 <+sezgin> has no national identification with anyone

18:24 <+tihana> It is depersonalization

18:25 <+sezgin> he is not catholic, he is not muslim, he is not slav, he is not italian or wahtever.

18:25 <@PeterFuchs2> Does depersonalization is an important elemet of morning, Tihana?

18:25 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, he was the most neutral person

18:26 <+tihana> I can not find the connection with mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss .... To finish the mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ..., it should be connected with the loss - that is specific.

18:27 <+tihana> That is way someone goes to the Wall (for example) to find a name, or light a candle.

18:28 <@PeterFuchs2> I think this one is a good example of art as therapyArt therapy is a human service profession that utilizes art media, images, the creative process, and patient/client responses to art productions as reflections of an individual's development, abilities, personality, interests, concerns, and conflicts ...

18:28 <@PeterFuchs2> are there any artworks in the region, which fullifies this role?

18:29 <+tihana> You must feel, without emotions you can not work through the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ....

18:30 <+tihana> I can not name specifically, but there are novels and poems or other kind of artworks that represent dealing with emotions.

18:30 <@PeterFuchs2> for example, the exhibiton you are writing about, Sezgin, has any role like that?

18:30 <+tihana> There is even one kind of therapy, for example, a bibliotherapy.

18:32 <+sezgin> 'Odstupanja' exhibition is another story actually

18:33 <@PeterFuchs2> from which aspect it comes to the subject,

18:33 <@PeterFuchs2> ?

18:34 <+sezgin> when i wrote my contribution to victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...'s symposium, odstupanja exhibition was just closed in belgrade

18:34 <+sezgin> than i interpreted as a proof of impossibility of talk between belgrade and prishtina

18:35 <+sezgin> in the text where i use 'traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...' very easily i can change it now also (and better would be) to 'politics'

18:35 <@PeterFuchs2> but don't you think that the people we stormed the exhibition was the one who could not “interpret”?

18:36 <@PeterFuchs2> they did not undestood the works at all, I think

18:36 <+sezgin> they didn't even saw the exhibi8tion

18:36 <@PeterFuchs2> I see

18:37 <@PeterFuchs2> I have seen the video of the event on youtube, when a guy shouts he is also an artist, and he thinks this is not art

18:37 <+sezgin> apart from very misterious circumstances of how it happened that in eyes of hundred policemans a vandal can destroy the artwork?!

18:37 <+sezgin> there is also more things unresolved

18:38 <@PeterFuchs2> seems to be a naive artist, or a very academic one

18:38 <+sezgin> which one?

18:38 <@PeterFuchs2> the one who was shouting during the opening seremony

18:38 <@PeterFuchs2> a vandal

18:39 <@PeterFuchs2> Do you think that none of the offenders ( I mean on poitical level) has undastood the exhibitited artworks?

18:40 <+sezgin> if you have look at exhibition it was not some complicated art installation

18:40 <@PeterFuchs2> yes

18:40 <@PeterFuchs2> thats why I am asking

18:41 <+sezgin> some needs one hour or two, to figure out the topic and concept of each work

18:41 <+sezgin> but here exhibition itself was problem

18:41 <+sezgin> not artworks

18:41 <@PeterFuchs2> they did not accepted that artist can work with the subject?

18:42 <+sezgin> maybe one artwork was very much symbolisng this unacceptability

18:42 < nibbit> i am tring to find a name, or a very much symbolisng this unacceptability

18:42 <+sezgin> it was dren maliqi's Face to Face wotk

18:43 <+sezgin> work

18:43 <@PeterFuchs2> can you tell us a little about it?

18:45 <+sezgin> It is work which young artist from Kosova made in 2003, when he was even more young, and it is installation which was portraits Adem Jashari (KLA hero and martyrToday, it is an expression most commonly used to describe someone who has been killed for his/her religious beliefs ...) and Elvis Presley represented in Worholian pop-art style and facing each other

18:46 <+sezgin> and bothe with the guns

18:46 <+sezgin> in their hands

18:46 <@PeterFuchs2> And the warholian justrapoxation was not discovered?

18:47 <+sezgin> where in belgrade?

18:47 <@PeterFuchs2> yes

18:48 <+sezgin> by curators, and many art critics of belgrade who are labeling theemselves as 'progresive' citizens did saw this warholian trick

18:48 <@PeterFuchs2> but anyone who were not educated on the language of modern (art), was not?

18:49 <+sezgin> no unfortunately they couldn't

18:50 <@PeterFuchs2> that was the piece which were destoryed?

18:50 <+sezgin> yes only part of it, which was about adem jashari

18:50 <@PeterFuchs2> by the vandals?

18:51 <@PeterFuchs2> I see

18:51 <+sezgin> it is somehow still unresolved,

18:51 <@PeterFuchs2> The destruction of artworks as a therapy is also an interesting topic to discuss

18:52 <+sezgin> what do you mean by that?

18:53 <+tihana> I think destruction as itself, why to destroy artworks or someone identity.

18:53 <@PeterFuchs2> I think those people took the image of the KosovoKosovo is a region in the Balkans, presently under the ad interim control of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo and protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Kosovo Force ... war hero as a “altar piece” type, glorifiing image, without the Warholian cynizm

18:54 <@PeterFuchs2> it might be similar as flag burning nowadays

18:54 <+tihana> Yes, it might.

18:54 <@PeterFuchs2> “we destroy the blashpehmous image” - they might thought

18:55 <+sezgin> yes that is for sure

18:55 <+tihana> Or just destroy the other one. Symbol that most represent it - flag, artwork

18:55 <@PeterFuchs2> yes

18:55 <@PeterFuchs2> can it have therapistic effect?

18:56 <+tihana> Hm. It usualy stems from destruction, actualy begins from desire to destroy. Therapeutic would imply sort of healing.

18:57 <@PeterFuchs2> yeah, thats sounds logical

18:57 <+tihana> It is negative, not constructive aggression.

18:57 <@PeterFuchs2> Hm, I just noticed, we run out of time for the today discussion

18:57 <+tihana> Right.

18:58 <+sezgin> when is next discussion

18:58 <@PeterFuchs2> I hope you enjoyed the dabate, I think we made some interesting points

18:58 < angela> the channel will stay open until 9 tonight if anyone wants to continue

18:58 <@PeterFuchs2> unmoderated dicussion will take place anytime

18:58 <+tihana> It was very interesting.

18:58 < angela> otherwise the next time is 10 tomorrow morning

18:58 < iggy> how could one read the parts of the discussion one has missed?

18:58 <@PeterFuchs2> yes, next time at Monday 10

18:59 < angela> i will put the transcript online in about 20 minutes

18:59 < iggy> where to?

18:59 < angela> the previous transcripts from other sessions are accessible via the schedule page

18:59 < angela> http://victims.labforculture.org/site/debate/schedule

18:59 < iggy> thanx

18:59 <@PeterFuchs2> And tomorrow, we will continue moderated discussion at 18:00