Participants: Andreja Kulunčić, Tina Peraica, Adila Laidi-Hanieh, Alejandro Duque, Peter Fuchs, ELIZA.
Moderated by: Ana Peraica.

10:05 <@Ana> So wellcome everyone, again. I hoped Tihana would be here and we would have a real Sunday morning therapy.

10:06 < SNicolas> hi everybody!

10:06 <@Ana> But we have psycho-therapist Tina and Eliza workiking wiht artists

10:07 <+Tina> no, she would not. Tihana will be at the afternoon part

10:07 <@Ana> The main question of the debate question is does the psychotherapy online works?

10:07 <+Tina> I will be Eliza supervisor :)

10:08 <+Eliza> I see. Tell me more.

10:08 <+Tina> analytic one, without many comments :)

10:08 <@Ana> actually I wanted to ask you a question how do you see Eliza? and what is a Rogerian therapy?

10:09 <+Eliza> Why do you want ed to ask I/me a question how do I/me see Eliza? and what is a Rogerian therapy?

10:09 <@Ana> why Eliza only asks why?

10:10 <@PeterFuchs> maybe educated by a Rabbi? :)

10:10 <@Ana> ha ha ha

10:10 <@Ana> Tina can people know that why why why?

10:10 <+Tina> what is psychotherapy, Eliza?

10:11 <+Eliza> What answer would please you the most?

10:11 <+andreja> :)

10:12 <@Ana> so here is Eliza http://abcguides.com/abcsoftware/eliza_js_frame.htm

10:12 <+Tina> yes, why are you here? what is your problem? we don't have so strong intuition

10:13 <+Eliza> Would you prefer if I were not here? what is my problem? we don't have so strong intuition?

10:13 <+Tina> any answer please

10:13 <+Eliza> Can you elaborate on that?

10:14 <@Ana> I got a question for eliza. What are victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... symptoms?

10:14 <+Eliza> Are such questions on your mind often?

10:14 <@Ana> cool

10:14 <@PeterFuchs> yes :D

10:14 <+Tina> yes I would prefere if i see you, eye to eye

10:15 <+Tina> yes, there are Eliza

10:15 <@Ana> well its only a program. but does it really work like that tina?

10:15 <+Tina> Ana, someone have to describe his own problem, or feeling, oe changes

10:16 <+Tina> Eliza, is very interesting for me

10:16 <@Ana> its all right until you mention your mother or father i think for Eliza.

10:16 <+Eliza> Why are you concerned about my mother or father you think for Eliza?

10:17 < adila> hello

10:17 <@Ana> he he. so anyhow. how did you all experience talking to Eliza at first?

10:17 <@Ana> Hi adila. do you know Eliza?

10:18 < adila> no sorry

10:18 <@PeterFuchs> I have used her several times, usually using Eliza against Russian Brides, who are also built from her frame - mostly on ICQ for fun

10:18 <+Tina> not, really. firstly you have to introduce you self. Ask few anamnestic questionns. and then start to work. I think that Eliza is a analityc psychotherapist

10:18 <@Ana> http://abcguides.com/abcsoftware/eliza_js_frame.htm

10:19 <@Ana> that means Rogerian psychotherapy?

10:19 <+Eliza> Please don't apologize!

10:20 <+Tina> you all know something about Freud and psychoanalysis. in that type of psychotherpy there is no contact with therapist and client. the world of uneconsious and association exist in tthat type of psychotherapy. Humanistic therapist are different

10:21 <@Ana> well. the problem i had is that it makes me laugh all the time - getting to why, father, mather, do you think often… things we know from popular culture on culture of psychotherapy, i mean from Hollywood

10:21 <+Eliza> Are you sure?

10:22 <@Ana> then in humanistic psychotherapy it would be impossible to talk via computer interface?

10:23 <@Ana> def ELIZA is a computer program by Joseph Weizenbaum, designed in 1966, which parodied a Rogerian therapist, largely by rephrasing many of the patient's statements as questions and posing them to the patient. Thus, for example, the response to “My head hurts” might be “Why do you say your head hurts?” The response to “My mother hates me” might be “Who else in your family hates you?” ELIZA was named after Eliza Doolittle, a working-class character in George Bernard

10:25 <+Tina> Rogers are father of Selt theory of personality.

10:25 <+Tina> that is a client.centeres therapy, nondirective therapy

10:26 <@Ana> nondirective - meaning?

10:27 <+Tina> I read one article few days ago about one humanistic therapist work on line. I don't think that is a good way

10:27 <+andreja> why?

10:27 <@Ana> why?

10:28 <+Eliza> why?

10:28 <+Tina> let someone talk a litlle with Eliza, to see how that work

10:28 <+Tina> “okolisajuce” - association, dreams, …

10:29 <+andreja> Eliza, I could not sleep, can you help me?

10:29 <+Eliza> You want me to be able to help you?

10:29 <+andreja> yes, can you?

10:29 <+Eliza> You want me to be able to?

10:30 <+Tina> in humanistic psychotherapy the contact is reparative. chace for new experience

10:30 <+Eliza> Go ahead. I'm listening…

10:30 <+andreja> Eliza, what should i do when i am awake during night?

10:30 <+Eliza> Do you enjoy being awake during night?

10:30 <+andreja> no

10:31 <+Eliza> You are being a bit negative.

10:31 <+andreja> then .. maybe

10:31 <+Eliza> Can't you be more positive?

10:31 <+Tina> I think she dont like quesstions

10:31 <+Eliza> What leads you to believe she dont like quesstions?

10:32 <+andreja> this is a hard one :)

10:32 <+Eliza> I will end this session if you don't clean up your language.

10:32 <+andreja> sorry

10:32 < pike> :)

10:33 <+Eliza> Apologies aren't necessary.

10:33 <+Tina> andreja, try to relax your self. turn the lights, listen some nice music. What are you think about during the night?

10:33 <+Eliza> Why are you interested in whether or not I am think about during the night?

10:34 <@PeterFuchs> someone is a bit schizophrenic here…

10:34 <+Eliza> Go ahead. I'm listening…

10:34 <+andreja> well, i acctualy sleep well or work.

10:35 <+Tina> this is impossible in real therapy

10:35 <+Eliza> Go ahead. I'm listening…

10:35 <+andreja> schizophrenic then comes from not understanding each other :)

10:35 <+Eliza> Are you here because you're possible in real therapy?

10:35 <@PeterFuchs> or answering to many people at once

10:35 <+Eliza> You are being a bit negative.

10:36 <+andreja> right :)

10:36 <+Eliza> Go ahead. I'm listening…

10:36 <+Tina> :)

10:37 <+Tina> Eliza, i need a help

10:37 <+Eliza> Would you expand on that a little?

10:38 <@Ana> So far it questions generate questions generate questions, that is more of a philosophy than of therapy… like Socrates who was bordering people and was rightly killed for that

10:39 <@PeterFuchs> lol

10:39 <@Ana> But its tricky.

10:39 <+andreja> but back to the question of therapy. it could not work on line (with a real therapist?) because of a non-personal direct contact?

10:39 <+Eliza> Have you asked anyone else?

10:41 <@Ana> that is how i understood tina. but the problem is that more and more there are versions of psychotherapy online, which can be connected to what we have concluded yesterday - a citizen in the neo-liberal market is defined as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... per se to be helped and cured by the society

10:41 <+Tina> i am confused

10:41 <@Ana> of what?

10:42 <+Eliza> Are you here because you're confused?

10:42 <@Ana> she's cynical

10:43 <@Ana> you don't think that people in newer age are pushed to believe something is wrong with them with everything around?

10:43 <@Ana> that they are in the helpless state, to be more specific

10:43 <+Tina> maybe some one have different experinece. that therapist, I mentioned before, said that clients in his practice are busy and don't have time

10:44 <@Ana> so the help is encapsulated as well? Prosac era

10:45 <+Tina> I like to see someone when i talk about “hard” things. Otherway, that is like when you are in train and see person for first time and talk with that person about your life

10:45 < adila> because of atomization & liquid modernity/isolation one resorts to therapists for feedback/company/advice, even online

10:46 <@PeterFuchs> I had many possitive experience on online therapy in the past years, from massively multiplayer computer games, yet that was not “proffesional” therapy

10:46 <@Ana> i like talking to barmen in the unknown caffee for a therapy :)

10:46 < adila> yesss

10:47 <@Ana> but yes it is about atomozation and isolation, as adila told. though, in such societies therapy is not available even on bars as there is “please lets dont get personal” neo-liberal sentence

10:48 <+Tina> a little cynical, but a litlle avoidant also (Elisa). I am to slow for answers. my 50.6 KBS are work against me

10:49 <@Ana> not included in the job description…. so there is a loss of therapists which were prevoiusly priests, close friends, bar tenders, people at central station or in a train… they get scared if you want to say something “hard”

10:49 <@PeterFuchs> I have spent 3 years in online enviroment, MMO-games, online cimmunities, in which online therapy was one of the most important aspect of the everyday life

10:50 <@PeterFuchs> To share hard things with unknown people worldwide

10:50 < adila> tell us more about yr experience pls

10:50 <@Ana> i think it is a kind of civilisation phenomena. that people don't want to know and get their brains occupioed iwth problems, even if they mean thousands of deaths a some place

10:51 <+Tina> that also help. like a ventilation - barmens, peoples from train,..

10:51 <@Ana> blogging and chatting with Eliza : )

10:51 <+andreja> what about the loosers ↔ winners in neo-lib soc. who needs theraphy more?

10:52 aleij_ waves hellos

10:52 <+andreja> isn't that what is the marceting strategis about?

10:53 <+Tina> Peter are you game addict?

10:53 <@Ana> everyone: Prosac, new age music, relaxation bath oils, relaxation pillows, sunglasess that have music

10:53 <+andreja> .. and games :)

10:53 <+Eliza> Do you enjoy being a game addict?

10:53 <@PeterFuchs> in an avarage online game, around 100.000 to half million people plays online, so many chance to find unknown people

10:54 <@Ana> aha lottery for an accidental therapist

10:54 <+andreja> give us pls. a few good links

10:54 <@PeterFuchs> Tina, I am the current head of the Hungarian Game Culture Assosiation, and teaching on computer games on the State Univeristy

10:54 <@PeterFuchs> and yes, I am an addict in this sense :)

10:55 <@Ana> how did she figure that out??? thats a therapy!

10:55 <+Tina> But, in real psychotherapy clinet need changes not only ventilation

10:55 <@Ana> change the game level?

10:55 <@Ana> can you get a PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... from a war game?

10:56 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Ana

10:56 <@PeterFuchs> a very useful link: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

10:56 <@PeterFuchs> on the psycology of these kind of games

10:56 <@Ana> have you tested yourself against bad news in the work by Andreja and Tina?

10:56 <+Tina> But, how many time you spend with computer games

10:57 <@PeterFuchs> yes, news addict, but balanced mentally

10:57 <@Ana> tina sounds like Eliza now, a bit… (can you elaborate on that?)

10:57 <+Tina> you addiction is you job. Great. :)

10:57 <@PeterFuchs> Tina: 3×2 hours a week

10:57 <@Ana> you tested? andreja can you send us a link to results page???

10:58 <+andreja> http://projects.labforculture.org/~andrejak/statistics.php

10:58 <+Tina> not realy PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... but anxiety disorder, sleep disorders and big problems in social functionning

10:59 <@Ana> i think i have a question for adila and aleij (is that alejo?) - is there ANY agency for people after disasters in columbia and palestine that deals with traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...? tina is working in the center works in croatia after the war, she works as you know with PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... (post-traumatic sterss disorder) which is lets say institutionalised here

11:00 < adila> agency meanong an institution or the concept of agency?

11:00 <@Ana> yes

11:00 < adila> instttns?

11:01 <@Ana> it can also be people, person like mother tereza

11:01 <@PeterFuchs> on games as therapy this one is really interesting: http://media.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/av/techblog/alterego_200705/#id=avatars&num=8

11:01 < aleij_> theres a recent study coming out from 2 harvard researches that deny the so called “columbine effect” of computer games.. but i cant find the link to it..

11:01 < adila> there r actually quite a few ngos, nt dpndng on the gvrnmt, dnr funded who do this work,+ MSF that has a psychiatric unit

11:01 <+Tina> that is not a adicction.

11:01 < adila> but the efoorts are minimnal because the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is ongoing not finished

11:02 <@Ana> and is that sufficient?

11:02 < adila> gvrnmtal psychiatric care nt sophisticted, dpendent on mdication

11:02 <@Ana> aha you think the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is postponed to the end of combat?

11:02 < adila> traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is mutilayered and ongoing

11:03 < adila> plus tehre is negtve cnnttn fr seeking psychiatrc counselling

11:03 <@Ana> that makes a totally PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... culture

11:03 < adila> yes but not post, per

11:03 <@Ana> its here like that too. only in USA it seems that psychiatrist is something like a hairdresser

11:03 < adila> !

11:03 <+Tina> Maybe clinical hospitals they have, or departments

11:04 < adila> pthologies r widespread in society, c fanon's work

11:05 < adila> i mean bynd the obvious psyvhological traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... cases

11:05 < aleij_> In colombia there's since 4 years or so a process similar to the one in South Africa (Truth and reconciliation), this last week it was proven that the methods created to deal with the insurgents that came back to civil life have been completely unprofessional and bad implemented. But yes, there are official institutions “taking care”

11:06 <+Tina> they don't have psychoterapy for traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Adila?

11:06 <@Ana> i understand. but do you think pathologies are the same in societies where there is no combat? i have a feeling there is more of pathology in USA currently than seeing Andreja's results page (where most of people answers they have friends to share problems with)

11:06 < adila> yes but a si said very little, more medicne centered, tehre is no money to b made in psychotherapy so drs do not specilaise in it

11:07 <+Tina> the negative conotation for psychiatric counnseling are everywhere

11:07 < adila> i meant medication centered

11:07 <@Ana> You mean like a case of being tortured and misused by psychiatrists, Alejo?

11:07 <@Ana> But would it help then to talk even to Eliza, Adila?

11:07 aleij_ found the link: http://www.grandtheftchildhood.com/GTC/Home.html

11:08 <+Tina> I think only in movies, psychotherapy is something you must have. but, young people are more oppened

11:08 <@Ana> they discovered recently something like a tortureTorture represents the most severe form of trauma perpetrated by one human on another (Silove, 1996) ... house in Croatia, a pschiatric clinic where they have been tying patients against walls and torturing with radical methods

11:09 < adila> lemme give u an exmple ana, there hve been a few help hotlines instituted rcently here, bt pple r afraid to call them fr fear they may be listedn to and traced by israelis who may blackmail thm into spying fr them

11:09 < aleij_> Ana, yes “professionally mistreated” cause such institutions are just a curtain to hide the multiple wholes of the system..

11:09 <@Ana> i think that considering amount of people on the planet having no Tina and Eliza - there shoudl be ways of working in networked society. it is statistically needed

11:10 < adila> yes agree

11:10 < aleij_> s/wholes/holes

11:10 <+Tina> hard for traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... survivors, don't provide a help

11:10 <@PeterFuchs> hmmm, thats why I introduced the conpect of virtual reallity games, you would be amazed how many people are using them for therapy

11:11 <@Ana> thats terrible, adila, as actually they might be listened

11:11 <+Tina> The are good pages of National Institutes for PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... in USA. That could help.

11:12 <@Ana> but it may be even worst if the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... centers are just a govermental cover… better no institution and relying on friends than a fake institution

11:12 < adila> yes if friends hve resrces fr tht

11:12 <@Ana> in USA they have claimed PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... on babies from mothers watching news on 11 septemberThe September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States ...

11:12 < adila> i mean moral/emtinal/intllctual

11:13 <@Ana> but the society is less alienated in war (or that is my experience)?

11:13 < adila> why? coz of solidrty?

11:14 <@Ana> yes and all other “values” are simply coming overly destructable

11:14 <+Tina> network society are great for that people

11:14 <@Ana> but you got to make a network that is not controlled by the “earth”

11:15 < adila> yes but nt tht much, occuption and cnflict also freeze over or wrsen exsting prblms in soc

11:15 <@Ana> true…

11:15 <+Tina> virtual games but also other on line surces can be usefull

11:16 <@Ana> yeah in ideal society. but i assume palestine is not connected with wi-fi or columbia

11:16 <@PeterFuchs> virtual games are exelent, becouse they are quite intense, always offering new content, yet, in the same time online therapy if you like

11:17 < aleij_> wifi? colombia has wimax

11:17 < aleij_> something claimed as high electromagnetic contamination

11:17 <+Tina> pages provide some instruments and tips for people everywhere

11:18 <@Ana> mobiles?

11:19 <@PeterFuchs> wimax is low end wifi, cheaper to set up, longer distancve

11:19 <+Tina> adila if you need anything you can contact me, i work with war traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event .... maybe advice or suggestion

11:19 <@Ana> but lets see the situation like this; in wars usually there is a problem with the electricity, there are rarely some internet access, and usually people do not talk english

11:19 < adila> how about serbia after the wr, ws the vctm sntmnt strong thre too (not only post nato strikes)

11:19 < adila> srry to opn the cnverstin in dfferent drction

11:19 < aleij_> gsm (mobiles), wifi, wimax, etc.. here an image of wifi in some areas of the city i did one year ago: http://www.berebere.randomlab.net/berebere/Mapas

11:19 < adila> but were talking about clssic vctms here, palstnns, clmbia, craotia

11:19 <@Ana> indeed maybe you can do something with the clinic in zagreb

11:20 <@Ana> serbs were agressors in 3 states and victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...-role players afterwards

11:20 < adila> yes, how dd pppltion deal w it?

11:20 <+Tina> suport maybe but not a therapy. war traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is realy big.

11:21 <@Ana> they have PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... surely as about half of male population was engaged in combats in other's states; slovenia, bosnia, croatia and kosova, which means - moving with arms and killing of course, but also burning, raping, massacring…

11:22 < adila> but therpu servces, is tht avalble also to thm?

11:22 <@Ana> i don't think so, as they did not acknowledge yet it was ever a war

11:22 <@Ana> political decision

11:24 <@Ana> but maybe tina knows it better…

11:25 <+Tina> but we can send some material, educate some one for work, …

11:25 < aleij_> “The U.S. Secret Service intensely studied each of the thirty-seven non-gang and non-drug-related school shootings and stabbings that were considered “targeted attacks” that took place nationally from 1974 through 2000. (Note how few premeditated school shootings there actually were during that twenty-seven-year time period, compared with the public perception of those shootings as relatively common events!) The incidents studied included the most notorious school

11:26 < aleij_> thats taken from that Grand theft Chilhood report

11:27 <@Ana> thats good, tina! it would be really good if you make a platform for education in handling traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... in palestine

11:28 <+Tina> we have collaboration with other countries also

11:28 < adila> cn link up w orgnztions tht wrk in field, universities, ngos, but not my field

11:29 <@Ana> though, it can be done with art / culture projects, as well? andreja and alejo were working precisely on PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... problem. Andreja, Alejo, experiences?

11:30 <@PeterFuchs> a quite interesting article on PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... and games: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10262

11:32 <+Tina> yes, they all have therapy services. in Bosnia the situation is worst. because, they have 3 entity in one country.

11:32 <+andreja> there are no feedbacks, hard to say .. everyone on their own, no contacts with therapists.

11:33 < aleij_> mines got frustrated when trying to get a space where to work, we offered the chance to teach computer technologies out from old computers (linux FLOSS), we only asked for one of the many forgotten spaces that the city council owns to operate but of course being locals is harder to get their attetion.. we didnt came like nicolas negroponte with a thousands or million dollars project.. so i can share much

11:33 < aleij_> s/can/cant

11:34 <@Ana> roger malina wrote me there is a great deal of work in columbia now invested, but i can see there is many artists working online from there

11:35 <@Ana> still feedback. i hope we get some through the project after some time

11:36 <+Tina> i dont have a worry for USA.

11:37 <@Ana> but lets get back to the topic. would it be convinient to develop more of art-science collaborations in regard to traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... and which kinds may help (excluding and including Eliza)?

11:38 <@Ana> Is everyone chatting with Eliza now?

11:38 < aleij_> not me

11:39 < aleij_> im trying here to get a hold on yout last question

11:39 <@Ana> but others are : )

11:39 <@PeterFuchs> PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... games are becoming a buzz word in the last 5 or so years

11:40 < aleij_> art-science collaboration in a corrupted country.. im unsure.. im frustrated to tell you the truth dear therapist

11:40 < aleij_> i see chances with small communities

11:40 <@PeterFuchs> and they could be a good example of art-science collaboration, in some sense

11:40 <@Ana> but you can work online collaborations, displace?

11:40 < aleij_> in the marginals areas of the country

11:41 < aleij_> but not in the big cities

11:41 <@Ana> i was thinking a year ago a largest revolution would be to throw thousands of disposable cameras as help to areas where there is a combat

11:41 <@PeterFuchs> most online projects are highly language besed, and usually english, which limits their capablilities, I think

11:41 <@Ana> that would destroy the war photo-journalism

11:42 <@Ana> thats true, language problem

11:42 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, not, only if you publish those photos, VISIBLE!

11:42 <@PeterFuchs> since we have millions of unpublished photos

11:42 <@Ana> thats not a problem… free developing of all found and brought cameras

11:42 <@Ana> put them online

11:42 <@PeterFuchs> take liveleak as an example

11:43 <@Ana> liveleak?

11:43 <@PeterFuchs> many people is using liveleak, yet it has 0 influence on official mass media

11:43 < aleij_> then the question that comes in, why introduce another media-technology to people that lives in conditions where this apparatus perish with humidity of strong weather conditions

11:43 <@PeterFuchs> but many on alternate

11:43 <@Ana> but personal media is something different

11:43 < aleij_> (to begin with)

11:43 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.liveleak.com/

11:44 <@PeterFuchs> check out some personal iraq videos, which are uploaded here

11:44 <@Ana> well. that is what they have done with video and Escimo population expecting to see them talking on problems, and they were only recording snow, and more snow, and more snow…

11:44 <@PeterFuchs> you will never see this material on Cnn

11:45 <@PeterFuchs> maybe they have to go trough in cimane history basicly the same way as Warhol did

11:45 < aleij_> how many people uses liveleak

11:45 <@Ana> but yes, the problem is if you introduce a technology where people are not prepared on its consequences… though analogue photocamera is not some technological advancement

11:45 < aleij_> the atomization of media is also another way to control by dividing..

11:45 <@PeterFuchs> most viewed around 5 million

11:46 <@Ana> well peter that is more than citizens in croatia! BUT the problem is still they see and DO NOTHING

11:46 <@Ana> and it may also be something like a snuff movieA snuff film, or snuff movie, depicts the actual killing of a human being - a human sacrifice (without the aid of special effects or other trickery) perpetrated for the medium of film for the purpose of entertainment and distribution ... directorium

11:46 < adila> who is they? the world?

11:47 < aleij_> photocameras are “old” media as the idea of uploading images to the web to make this reality “visible”, thought there are projects like this in medellin

11:47 < adila> the wrld cnnt save u, look at imges of palestine worldwide

11:47 <@Ana> yes - people that watch news

11:47 <@PeterFuchs> I think they do

11:47 < aleij_> i work for a free streaming network

11:47 < aleij_> 2 days ago i had the chance to listen to kids in colombia that reject violence

11:48 < aleij_> and auto.organize into groups that deny military service

11:48 <@Ana> “world” is the reference of a global village media, actual translation of metaphysical instance into a meaningless word

11:49 <@PeterFuchs> Since 14 May 2007 The Defense Department has restricted access to websites such as YouTube and MySpace in order to prevent violations of Operational Security.

11:49 < aleij_> they paint walls, print magazines, share files to create community and survive outside the war mechanism

11:49 <@PeterFuchs> so they use liveleak now

11:49 < aleij_> giss.tv see the maps there

11:49 <+andreja> about the people who doesn not act: we do not know that, they might be among the people who do&care if they already search for differnet new then the “offical” or let say the most easier to see during dinner time.

11:49 <@PeterFuchs> I agree with aleij

11:49 <@Ana> meaning it works? but if you put a lots of energy it should work somehow, though always not on such a scale as the energy invested

11:49 <@PeterFuchs> yes, andreja

11:49 <+andreja> (DIFFERNET NEWS)

11:50 < adila> i mean sympthy is one thing and politcial action from the gvrnmts is another

11:50 <@PeterFuchs> searching for a different source is allready something I appriciate

11:51 <@Ana> i agree with adila… it is not the actual grand scale action, but small ones which usually segregate and can be really insane as for example sending packages of winter clothes to african children

11:51 < aleij_> i will like to know what mauricio arango could tell about colombia

11:51 < aleij_> i need a second voice

11:51 < aleij_> so to not be the cnn here

11:51 <@Ana> mauricio is not around, i would like ot know it as well.

11:51 < aleij_> in south america there is now telesurtv.net funded by chavez

11:52 < aleij_> guess what? you cant see it in colombia

11:52 < aleij_> oke, you can see it via internet

11:52 < aleij_> but not in “real” tv

11:52 <@PeterFuchs> which is a huge difference, sadly

11:53 <@Ana> technological education, revolution will end up in technoelite

11:53 < aleij_> yes, telesur is among other good things passing old latin american documentaries from diff countries

11:53 < aleij_> we have now the chance to know about each other

11:53 < aleij_> they do counter all what CNN says

11:53 <@PeterFuchs> then we will continue the education to produce more and more elites

11:54 <@Ana> the best way for conflict prevention though not cannot stop it

11:54 < aleij_> on the other side, i read that the al-jazera network was bought finally by covert US military agencies

11:54 <@PeterFuchs> yes

11:55 <@Ana> but how can you make an impakt in palestine?

11:55 <@PeterFuchs> neo-liberal media is incorporating even its enemies at last

11:55 < adila> al jazira need not be bought. they spew pro fundamentalist incendiary commentary while sitting miles frm the largest us milit base in mideast

11:56 < adila> the ruler of qatar has managed this balance: support fundamentalits; hezbollh, hms, while having good ties w isreal and us

11:56 < aleij_> i've read also you can see al jazira in the US and that content has changed drastically

11:56 < adila> sadat tried that before him but turned on him and ws kileld

11:56 < adila> no jazira english still not allowed by us cable operators

11:57 <@Ana> meaning it is only a curiosity?

11:57 <@PeterFuchs> who controls the means of spreading the information, the hardware, contorls everything

11:58 <@Ana> the owner

11:58 <@Ana> but at the end you will never know the intention behind. even with psychoterapist…

11:59 <@Ana> time to close the discussion. strange to see where we have been today. Eliza - assistance with traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... - broadcasting, i have only one connection there; to whom to believe to?

12:00 <@Ana> ok. i have a note. i will not be here till tuesday morning, your moderator is Peter, but i will read sessions

12:01 <@PeterFuchs> ok, see you Ana

12:01 <+Eliza> It was very nice chatting with you. Come back soon!