Participants: Andreja Kulunčić, Stevan Vuković, Alejandro Duque, Ana Peraica.
Moderated by: Peter Fuchs.

17:01 <@PeterFuchs> hi all, lets start the afternoon session

17:01 <@Ana> So wellcome everyone again. a new introduction from the start. We are wellcoming in the afternoon session Alejo Duque, a Columbian born Switzerland resident artist (he should be ad), Andreja who is also an artist, angela and pike from the lab for culture and Peter who is going to lead us through outcomes of morning discussions in the new topics

17:02 <@Ana> and i hope we don't get mad without psychiatrist and psychoanalist support :)

17:02 <@PeterFuchs> We have adressed several topics in the morning session, yet, I think we should give a little bit of detail on our own involvment in the subject

17:03 <@PeterFuchs> lets think a little about our experience on memorials regarding of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., victimization, I would like each of you to share such an experience, to have an overview

17:03 <@PeterFuchs> just to sort out our own positions

17:04 <@Ana> ok. i will summarize to alejo. we were speaking of encapsulation of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... narrative in terms of good - bad characters (victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - opressors / agressors) that prevail in families, religion, and are broadcasted as such through generations. Andreja thinks the turn is every 40 years

17:04 <@Ana> a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... narrative is told by the survivor, who is actually depicting the identity and projects the identity as well

17:05 <+ad> yes, i can read through that idea

17:06 <@Ana> the whole problem turned out to be a problem of the identity, why some victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are mere victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... while the other heroes. so we concluded more or less that narcissism and a need for a father figure frames the role of a hero

17:06 <+ad> is a heavily politized one isn't?

17:06 <@Ana> yes, and it serves the revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., so there is no forgettingAmnesia is the partial or total inability to recall past experiences; may be of organic or emotional origin (Sadock, 2003) ... as soon as the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...'s tale is encapsulated not to be forgotten for generation

17:07 <+ad> to touch with memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ..., as PeterFuchs suggests, i can tell that the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of violence and displacement in colombia are still in the forgotten side

17:07 <+ad> i wonder if in 40 years we could see a turnin point

17:07 <@Ana> the other part was that possiblity of mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... - a topic where memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... comes; it is done for survivors not victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

17:07 <+ad> (turning)

17:08 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats what I am looking for

17:08 <@Ana> the problem is you never know… who keeps the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...' narrative. in croatia they turned out to be old woman in black sitting in churches, who turned out to be sisters and girlfirends of ones who were killed by partisans in the WW2. they looked very innocent though

17:10 <@Ana> the problem how much further in time you can seed the narrative? anyone knows which is the oldest victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... narrative not forgotten and still asking for a revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...?

17:10 <@PeterFuchs> What makes, (what institutions) a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... not to be forget?

17:10 <@PeterFuchs> forgetted

17:11 <+andreja> and the people who were taken to camps in Italy after the WW2 and then to Latin America, Canada .. these people were arround 19 years old when the war ended, the narative were very strange to hear from there stories ..

17:11 <@PeterFuchs> forgotten

17:12 <@PeterFuchs> As Stevan has joined the discussion, I would like to ask him about this “40 years”' - in case of the literally rememberence of HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ..., how did this time period worked

17:13 ad invited an irc bot that can help defining terms via wikipedia

17:14 <+ad> w:memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...

17:14 <@Ana> ..

17:15 <+stevan> I am not sure what that 40 years concept is about

17:15 <@PeterFuchs> I really wonder this “40 years” effect, which Andreja introduced to the discussion, since I have a similar experience, I think we all have, and address this time interval as the official time for coping with some sort of muorning. Do any of you agree of diagree

17:16 < Ana2> i was kicked out, sorry for the absence

17:16 < Ana2> 40 years are exactly two generations

17:17 < Ana2> that means grand-children

17:17 <+andreja> + still living actors from the last combats

17:18 < Ana2> yes, very old and suffering of many of old people's problems; memory, weakness and probably a need for a prolongation of life idea

17:19 <+andreja> very true!

17:19 < Ana2> witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... with incontinencia, Alsheimer and a revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

17:20 <@PeterFuchs> which brings us basicly to the afternoon topic, “what makes us different in reagard of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...”, in this case, that we are not the ones involdev directly

17:20 <@Ana2> but anyhow the issue of the witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ... is quite troublesome… Stevan was writing on that

17:21 <@Ana2> and Tina and Tihana's work has aprooved most of witnesses are suffering of PTSDPost-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is one of the anxiety disorders that occur after a person sees, is involved in, or hears of an extreme traumatic stressor ... and therefore have “a heathly revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...” period

17:21 <@PeterFuchs> sounds scary

17:21 <@Ana2> which part?

17:21 <@PeterFuchs> heathy revange

17:22 <@Ana2> a wish to revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... is healthy, denialAvoiding the awareness of some painful aspect of reality by negating sensory data ... of traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is not, as it comes back (in the old age having Alsheimer and other stuff)

17:22 <@Ana2> am I overly sarcastic with old people's narratives on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

17:23 <@PeterFuchs> not

17:23 <@PeterFuchs> thats what we experience a lot

17:23 <@PeterFuchs> what I am most interested how 2nd and 3rd generation carries on these emotions

17:24 <@Ana2> recently i was watching Tv and it was a death-anniversary of Jasenovac, a place where many of Serbs, Gipseys, partizan Croats et. al were killed. There were about 5 ov “survivors” there sitting on the sun, they came hardly moving. My mother told me she watches how each year she sees less of them and i wandered is that life - coming each year on that place to be an “illustration” something have happend to politicians who are only having promotion speeches on the m

17:25 <@Ana2> may be the connection to grandparents? the edge of life - children and old people… where you have too many questions on one side and “wisdom” and melanchonia on the other, but on both missing rationality

17:25 <+andreja> maybe the 2nd&3rd generation attitude might depend on the truma?

17:26 <@PeterFuchs> I suspect that small family stories, and family reinterpreataions of these events are really inportant in this case

17:26 <@Ana2> actually better word than illustration - witnesses are PROOFS (alive documents) something had happened, like stamps

17:27 < aleij> w-proofs

17:27 < wdwtw> proofs :: disambiguate :

17:27 < wdwtw> Formal proof | Mathematical proof | Proof theory | Logical argument | Evidence (law) | Proofing (baking technique) | Proofreading | Artist's proof | Proof coinage | Proof test | Homeopathy#Provings | Galley proof | Proof (alcohol) | Proof (1991 film) | Proof (play) | Proof (2005 film) | Speed of Sound (song) | angela (band) | Mell | Proof (rapper) | Proof (comics)

17:27 <@PeterFuchs> an example: A politician says something, and then Grandfather, who was “there”, immedietly comments: “I remenber different way”

17:27 <@PeterFuchs> m*

17:28 <@Ana2> yes, but wery strange - old people are always HEROES of their own lifes

17:28 <@Ana2> of course especially those that stay living for longer so they have no PROOFS it wasn't as that alive

17:28 <@PeterFuchs> don't type heroes in wikipedia :P

17:29 < aleij> w-traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...

17:29 < wdwtw> 'TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...' (plurals: 'traumata', 'traumas') can represent: Medical

17:29 < wdwtw> * Physical traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., an often serious and body altering physical injury, such as

17:29 < wdwtw> the removal of a limb Blunt force traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., a type of physical traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... caused 17:29 < wdwtw> by impact or other force applied from or with a blunt object Penetrating

17:29 < wdwtw> traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., a type of physical traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... in which the skin or tissues are pierced by

17:29 < wdwtw> an object

17:29 < wdwtw> * Psychological traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., an emotional or psychological injury, usually resulting

17:29 < wdwtw> from an extremely stressful or life-threatening situation

17:29 < wdwtw> * Post-cult traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., the intense emotional problems that some members of cults

17:29 < wdwtw> and new religious movements experience upon disaffection and disaffiliation

17:29 < wdwtw> * Advanced TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Life Support

17:29 < wdwtw> * Definitive Surgical TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Skills (DSTS)

17:29 < wdwtw> Print

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (comics), a character associated with Avengers: The Initiative

17:29 < wdwtw> Film

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (2004 film), a psychological thriller directed by Marc Evans and

17:29 < wdwtw> starring Colin Firth

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (1993 film), a horror film directed by Dario Argento

17:29 < wdwtw> * Also see Troma Entertainment, a film company specializing in independent,

17:29 < wdwtw> horror, and exploitation films

17:29 < wdwtw> Games

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Studios, which created Desert Combat, the most successful mod of the

17:29 < wdwtw> computer game Battlefield 1942

17:29 < wdwtw> Music

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (song) by Ayumi Hamasaki

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (album) by rapper/producer DJ Quik

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Records, a record label

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (band), a Polish Deathmetal band

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (band), an American Heavy-metal band

17:29 < wdwtw> Comics *TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... (comics), from the Marvel Universe

17:29 < wdwtw> People

17:29 < wdwtw> * TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Flintstone, drag performer and actress

17:29 < aleij> opps that was long

17:29 < aleij> sorry

17:30 < pike> interesting though maybe you should explain what happens there

17:30 <@Ana2> wdwtw you will be banned if you continue

17:30 <@PeterFuchs> I did not waited for that, wikibot

17:30 < aleij> hes a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... now

17:30 <+ad> or she

17:30 <@PeterFuchs> flooding too much, this IRC is not ready fpr this kind of bits

17:30 <@PeterFuchs> it, rather

17:30 <@Ana2> intenger logics :)

17:31 <@Ana2> andreja how did you see the dependence of children and old people to the traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ...?

17:32 <+andreja> i was trying to compare the hungarian and ex-yu “cases”, very differnet “enemies”, and different attitude to the past

17:32 -!- PeterFuchs changed the topic of #victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to: TraumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... Transfer

17:32 <@PeterFuchs> good idea

17:33 <+ad> so, you can say traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is inherited and prolonged from one generation to the next one via memorials and other similar cultural manifestations?

17:33 <+andreja> and also, not all of them are heroes, some very much regrets ..

17:34 <@Ana2> well there is a problem with grandparents and children transfer - identity that is researched genetically if all other ones are lost… like trying to find rhizomes of own family names or those very unimportant things to the formaiton of the person…

17:34 <@PeterFuchs> by Hungarian you mean the Trianon treaty, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon

17:34 <+andreja> and everything what come out of it!

17:34 <+andreja> my familiy was for example cut in half ..

17:34 <@Ana2> i am also thinking of the “you are so alike your grandfather who has..” sentence which is unescapable within the family memory discourse

17:34 <@PeterFuchs> yes, ad, it might be good idea to add some examples

17:35 <@Ana2> you mean separated?

17:35 <+andreja> yes, the famos “last trains”

17:35 <@Ana2> uf

17:35 <+andreja> which left before the borders were closed

17:35 <@PeterFuchs> yes, separated, but also the Hungarian language using the “cut in half” phrase

17:36 <+andreja> :)

17:36 <@Ana2> it reveals another problem - when people disappear or are far away and the process of mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... has not started yet as there is a hope, which actually happens with most of disappeared people.

17:37 <@PeterFuchs> To give you some details on this particular event, I mean the hungarian national traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ..., it was the final act of the treatys after the 1st world war, and diveded the Austro-Hungarian empire

17:38 <@PeterFuchs> but hungarian nationalist still remeberes it as the “country” cut in half

17:38 <@PeterFuchs> even in a 90 years distance

17:38 <+ad> thats a common case in colombia today, thousands of people searching for the bodies of other family members that have been “dissapeared” by paramilitary forces

17:38 <+ad> that have no peace of mind

17:39 <@PeterFuchs> ad: are there for example and official organization doing it, or rather just the relatives?

17:39 <@Ana2> that is the worst thing - when victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are not found and the family is victimized actually even if the member is alive

17:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Ana, the absence of the object of victimization is really significant

17:40 <+ad> PeterFuchs: you mean the search for the graves (fosas comunes)

17:40 <+ad> ?

17:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes

17:41 <@Ana2> then it returns back to the family - waiting, hoping but actually not living

17:41 <+ad> the goverment is investing people and resources on that, but many times is the family

17:42 <+ad> that goes back to places, as in a family picnic (like this it has been reported on the media) to search for their lost family members

17:42 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I am asking becouse if the “offical” polictics are not involved, the family also becomes a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., who is neglected in their sorrow

17:42 <@Ana2> forbidden to sorrow and neglected to sorrow - in some political regimes it was like that and it turned out to be the worst boomerang on society itself

17:43 <@PeterFuchs> and that is built into the narrative of victimization, - for example thats why the hungarian tramuma is still alive

17:43 <@PeterFuchs> yes, I agree with Ana

17:43 <@Ana2> like Armenians - there is an interview with Neery Melconian on that

17:44 <@Ana2> because it inbuilts a revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., it is not only the loss but the censorship of emotions

17:44 <@PeterFuchs> is the same happening in the post-yugoslavian context?

17:44 <+stevan> yes, I wander if you have seen the “Red Rubber Boots”, Jasmila Zbanic's documentary film, in which she follows with her camera a young woman, mother of two missing children, wandering around with team of forensic experts exhuming mass graves in their search for the remains of the war victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...., looking for those shows as identificatiry device

17:44 <@PeterFuchs> I mean forbidden, or neglected sorrow

17:44 <@Ana2> well i don't know here history is a tradefield now - not the resource any more, as it turned out thet the conquering is better done by buying than with military engines. though the ecconomy has victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as well

17:45 <@Ana2> and she finds victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...? or they?

17:46 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.absolutearts.com/artsnews/2004/01/21/31741.html - this one?

17:46 <+stevan> yes, that is the one

17:47 <@Ana2> something like a Waiting for Godot - putting life on hold … trying to find the impossible. sounds as a complete nightmare

17:47 <+stevan> the point is in the fact that the object of traumaPsychological trauma can happen soon after witnessing or being the victim of a traumatic event ... is missing and is irreplecable

17:48 <@Ana2> i am actually curious if the meaning of the “victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...” is forwarded on the next person in some kind of order, like if the family gets victimized if the person is not found can it be forwarded to larger social groups being victimized or society, or to some people that are not connected immediately and personally?

17:49 <+stevan> yes, if a personal experience is conveyed, showing that void, which is perhaps the only true memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... to what has happened

17:50 <@Ana2> actually it can from the family to society - as it gets reactions and victimizes again

17:50 <@Ana2> than we can speak of the endless order of victimisation - that cannot be stopped?

17:50 <@PeterFuchs> yes, the tranzitions form the level of the family to the larger bodies of the society is really interesting

17:51 <@Ana2> as for example a rule of the blood revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... in traditional societies of balkans

17:51 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, I think thats the part of the narrative of a community

17:51 <+stevan> that transition hardly goes without institutionalized means

17:51 <@Ana2> it comes randomly on the member of the family of the next generation, as a revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., but it is not predictable

17:52 <+stevan> it is mostly used to homogenize 'us' against 'them'

17:52 <+ad> big rolle plays media nowadays in colombia in such respect

17:52 <@PeterFuchs> this is question, in case of Hungary, in the communist era, we had no institutionalized form for this victimization, still it reemerged violently after the 40 years pf communism, and I think

17:52 <@Ana2> yes, but if the revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... is activated then it is easily turning meanings of us and them… suddnely someone else is them by the serial of chances of victimisaiton

17:52 <@PeterFuchs> the same was with Tito Era

17:53 <+ad> makes me think of the use of TV in the truth and reconciliation commision in SAfrica

17:54 <@Ana2> yes. the media, but also culture and arts… though not intentionally victimize

17:54 <+stevan> sometime they do that quite intentionally

17:55 <@PeterFuchs> media has to sell the image of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... somehow, maybe to make us fear to be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... also, so keep watchig them

17:55 <@Ana2> also that… but i was thinking of this: i met couple of academics with no actual topics of interest who made their phDs on holocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ..., because it was depicting some parts of their identities, though not immediately… basically they made their titles (used) victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and victimised them again

17:56 <@Ana2> it was always like that i think - you have in oral tradition the same, it is only now that it is faster and more loaded with victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... as GOOD NEWS IS NOT NEWS sailors would say

17:57 <@PeterFuchs> (covers his face in shame) I have so many bad experiences with that Ana , I mean with academcis here in hungary

17:57 <@Ana2> and scaring and getting frightened is a life impulse

17:57 <@Ana2> academics with USE FUNCTION of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

17:58 <@Ana2> basically what can victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... be used for?

17:58 <+ad> well i was thinking on the clear intention of the colombian goverment to allienate the families of thousands of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and avoid the “revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...” wave….

17:59 <@Ana2> well if andreja's assumption on 40 years: 2 generation is true - they can only postpone it

17:59 <@PeterFuchs> Do any of you regerd yourself as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... for any aspect? I am asking since we have a quite large number of factors to be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... so far…

18:00 <@Ana2> of course. i think a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is a counter-affect of any use-fuction (what is a consequence of any conscious action and is not good; and is written with small letters in case of medicaments)

18:00 <@Ana2> sorry, counter-indication

18:01 <@PeterFuchs> For example, I could be a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of mass (mess) media, 3rd generation HolocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... survior, post-traumatic survivor of Trianon Treaty, victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the worst tax system in europe, and so on

18:02 <@Ana2> of course, you can be the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the neighbour who forgot to turn of the gas in the apartement

18:02 <@PeterFuchs> but I never felt as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - not true: I can act as a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., or I can cope with it, and work with it

18:03 <@Ana2> but it is not the problem of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... but self-victimisationSee dependence projective identification ... as all of these issues you can solve actually. and real victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... cannot

18:03 <+stevan> “we are all victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of the dance” Tuxedomoon

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats the point Ana

18:03 <+stevan> i think we should concentrate more on what do we really mean by the word 'victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...'

18:03 <+andreja> then, are we aggressor?

18:03 <@PeterFuchs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxedomoon

18:04 <@Ana2> that would say that victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is helpless by the definition in the position s/he found her/himself

18:04 <@PeterFuchs> I agree with Stevan

18:04 <@Ana2> me too

18:05 <@Ana2> where do we start? with the intention or the consequences and possiblity of changing them?

18:05 <@PeterFuchs> I think the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is, who defines his/her identity by the narration of victimization

18:06 <+stevan> victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are mostly silent

18:06 <@Ana2> well then you include victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...s, which is an emotional manipulation not the real helpess state

18:06 <+stevan> some of them cannot even recall obuse, it is repressed in them, but causes aberations in behaviour

18:06 <@Ana2> i think the key is being in the situation that cannot be changed, even if they shout and sream (as if they are silent)

18:07 <+ad> “an emotional manipulation not the real helpess state” thanks for that ana

18:07 <+stevan> some of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... tend to reconcile with their perpetrators, but cannot with their personal pasts

18:08 <@Ana2> that is most of people claming suicides - they dont kill themselves usually but those that are not talking on suicides

18:08 <@Ana2> victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...s are quite traditional roles (woman on the Mediterannean, some nations…)

18:09 <@Ana2> and they are scenarios..

18:10 <+ad> for “playing the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...”

18:10 <@Ana2> yes, plaing the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is the agression - it makes a guilt of conscience and by that mean gets what it wants

18:11 <+ad> where in the 40years cronology can one place such act :)

18:12 <@Ana2> i think that is a daily chronology - “I always do everything! You never done anything for me! I am keeping the whole house! ”

18:12 <+ad> if theres any relation or connection to that original moment of the “helpless state”

18:12 <@PeterFuchs> in the hungarian language, victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... literally means: sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ..., which might come from the latinic word victima

18:13 <+stevan> “playing a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...” and being one are not necessarily related

18:13 <@Ana2> not - those that play are passive agressive like Rade Končar

18:14 <@Ana2> i think not being able to change the position is being victimized

18:15 <@Ana2> as if you can change conditions (escape from the country etc…) and not doing it it is a self-victimisationSee dependence projective identification ...

18:15 <@PeterFuchs> the sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... (victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...) has no option, just has to be sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ...d

18:16 <+stevan> sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ...d for the 'common good'

18:16 <+stevan> or the 'greater good of the greater part of the society'

18:16 <@PeterFuchs> sacrificied to please the “gods” in latin

18:17 <@Ana2> you mean common good as the other's goal or own goal? as with other's goal it can be a hero as well

18:17 <+stevan> we mirror the goals of the others with our desires to be socially acknowledged and respected as legitimate members of a society

18:18 <@Ana2> i think victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are accidental to goals, that is the misery of it…

18:18 <@Ana2> but heroes are using own misery to reinterpret it as goals which makes them socially acknowleged and respected dead members of a society

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> in fairy tales, victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are nesessary to move the plot, for example, the SacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... of Spring, which lives on in many religions

18:19 <@PeterFuchs> in the form of easter, for example

18:20 <@Ana2> thats the ecconomy between earth and metaphysics

18:21 <+stevan> checke out the “The Wicker Man” on imdb

18:21 <@PeterFuchs> do we had differnt victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in the ancient age, for example, think about greek tragedies, much different concept on who is the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:21 <@Ana2> i think it is the ecconomy always behind - victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are ecconomical gaps

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450345/

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> good find

18:22 <@Ana2> that is how it came to our society… greek pathetics / dramma, but they are not real victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... there but forms of narratives

18:22 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Ana, thats what I wanted to point out :)

18:22 <@Ana2> what?

18:23 <@PeterFuchs> but they are not real victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... there but forms of narratives

18:23 <+stevan> but that are role models we frequently take upon us

18:23 <+ad> in colombia the name is verdad y reparacion, reparacion stands for a very clear economical interest, is not hidden behind reconciliation as in SA

18:23 <@Ana2> yes, more literary person is the sense of victimisation comes bigger

18:23 <@Ana2> which means that reading Greek tragedies can make you really playing a victim roleThis tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another ...

18:24 <@PeterFuchs> offtopic, but it is not easy to get 3,5 on IMDB :D

18:25 <+stevan> that 3.5 is the 2006 version, check out the 1973 one

18:25 <@PeterFuchs> in some sense all people who are reading greek trgedies are victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of a neo-liberal market society, which does not tolerates such knowledge

18:26 <@Ana2> anyhow the culture we are living in is profiling new victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... all the time… twenty years ago it was normal parents slam their children and now they are victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of society informing them on their relationship all together and where there is no anger htere is hardly also love…

18:26 <@Ana2> wh

18:27 <@Ana2> i lost one sentence… neoliberal society is about making everyone feeling as being a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... but there is a commercial product that can SAVE you

18:28 <@Ana2> the point is that you are helpless without a product

18:29 <@PeterFuchs> I am refering to the afternoon topic for a while, “What makes us different in regard to victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?” - first we shall state who the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are?

18:30 <@Ana2> those that cannot help to themselves

18:30 <@Ana2> and there is a lemma1: by which a refusal to help oneself is not considered (passive agression)

18:31 <@Ana2> and lemma2: and by which those that are helpless anyhow (small babies, wounded people and old people) are included by the definition as first

18:32 <@PeterFuchs> Ana, I think we are not “about”, we are “in” this state of neo-liberal society

18:32 <+stevan> and victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are those who are submitted to some kind of violence, not necessarily visible

18:32 <@Ana2> and a collorarium: in the conditions which are out of their own control or the control of the social group they immediately belong to

18:33 <@Ana2> yes

18:33 <+stevan> no safety networks that can fully protect them from that violence, or it's effects

18:33 <@Ana2> i don't live in the neo-liberal society myself : ) i can help myself without it

18:33 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats true

18:33 <@Ana2> yes, thats right stevan!

18:34 <@PeterFuchs> Stevan: it proved in many cases that such networks become the source of victimizations themsleves

18:34 <@Ana2> and whose consequences are possibly continuing till the end of life (if not cured) or even generations

18:35 <@Ana2> thats another topic - who earns on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and what?

18:35 <+stevan> those who produce narratives on them

18:35 <+stevan> we are included

18:35 <@PeterFuchs> and an interesting one - since who earns, must be outside…

18:36 <@PeterFuchs> or not?

18:36 <@Ana2> yes: thats the primer one, but also ones that are executing in their names

18:36 <+ad> are those “safety networks” not the nearest “social group” to which one belongs anyway?

18:36 <@Ana2> those are Band Aids that sing for victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to become popular

18:36 <+ad> ok

18:37 <+ad> same network in my view

18:37 <@Ana2> but i don't think that deconstructing the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as a center of neo-liberal market and the trade of history is necessary earning on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

18:38 <@Ana2> according to the victimology - one that has been a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is more probably to become a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... AGAIN, than the one who has not been one yet

18:39 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, NOT becoming a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is a crutial point of this neoliberal economy

18:39 <+ad> i hate to arrive to this sentence, but, who is not a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of this neoliberal market societiey

18:39 <+ad> s

18:39 <+ad> ?

18:40 <@Ana2> if we draw a line Christ - release of the guilt conscience by protestantism - www2 re-introducement of the guilt conscience - and all sorts of commercial ways of paying of the sin or buying the solution is a center

18:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats a question for me too

18:40 <@Ana2> those that do not need help

18:40 <@PeterFuchs> or who can evade its system?

18:40 <@Ana2> autonomous societies

18:41 <@Ana2> Rade Končar :)

18:41 <@Ana2> the one who self-victimizes, ones that invert roles and become heroes and those that do not need help (which are both)

18:41 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.koncar.hr/

18:41 <@Ana2> hero has a name - it is one against society

18:42 <+stevan> in fact, yes, he was building his sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... into a new society, that was to avoid the liberal market

18:42 <+stevan> into the foundation of that new society

18:42 <+stevan> at least he tought so

18:42 <@Ana2> yes. Christ as well, Jean D'Arc… the problem of heros is they are coming prophets, thats why they are dangerous

18:42 <@Ana2> so he actually surpassed the state of affair

18:43 <@Ana2> that is the force of the myth formation

18:43 <+stevan> and all societies are built on a myth

18:43 <+stevan> even the neo-liberal market is a myth

18:43 <@Ana2> that is why neoliberal ecc kills people before they get killed themselves in public with the message for the future

18:44 <@Ana2> neoliberal market is a functional myth

18:44 <+stevan> because we believe in it

18:44 <@Ana2> kill the messenger

18:44 <@Ana2> yes, that is why i told i am not living in it.

18:44 <@PeterFuchs> neoliberal market is happy to be a myth :)

18:44 <@Ana2> yes… perfect <PeterFuchs> neoliberal market is happy to be a myth :)

18:45 <@Ana2> but one myth usually needs to kill all others to survive - point of inter-religion wars

18:46 <@Ana2> who is the enemy of neoliberal market society?

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> your position as an outsider seems to be interesting in this sense

18:46 <+stevan> those who don't want to shop

18:46 <@Ana2> solypsism

18:46 <@Ana2> narcissists - therefore: heroes

18:46 <@Ana2> those that do not NEED to shop

18:46 <@PeterFuchs> it is very important that Neo-liberal society incorporates its enemy also

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> and repecking and selling them

18:47 <@PeterFuchs> repack*

18:47 <@Ana2> wll it cannot do it fully, as there are sociopaths, solypsists, solo-riders, individuals that cannot fit the package, they are simply out though they appear unimportant in the mass society…

18:48 <@Ana2> try to repack a schizoprhreniac

18:48 <@Ana2> or multiple personality disorder

18:48 <+stevan> i was just some day reading on the problems of people that are coming out of jail after several years, in resocializing, in the sense that they are to free to do whatever they were dreaming of in the jail, but are to be labour force on the market

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> I really hate to come up with this, but this movie is really interesting on this issue http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/

18:49 <@Ana2> blockbuster?

18:49 <@PeterFuchs> it is, and a very strong anti-neoliberal narrative

18:49 <@Ana2> you mean they come as scenarios as well?

18:50 <+ad> investing on bullets to get money to buy those new nike shoes pay new cirgury to my girlfriend and buy a frigo to my mother.. tell who is the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

18:50 <@PeterFuchs> all you do in prison is building scenarios…

18:50 <@Ana2> you are the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of yourself

18:50 <+ad> old news :)

18:50 <+ad> hehe

18:51 <@Ana2> what did you expect me to say? nike?

18:51 <+ad> as im from my kid as he is from me

18:51 <@PeterFuchs> definetly not he bullet manufacturer

18:51 <@Ana2> : )

18:52 <@Ana2> can we get some lines of out of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as the central role of neo-liberal market ecconomy?

18:53 <@Ana2> 1. the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is forwarded (as alejo has shown in his narrative on nike)

18:53 <@Ana2> 2. the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is culturally framed and bounded in the center - giving the identity (Christ, ww2) of the mass society

18:53 <@PeterFuchs> As I said, neo-liberal economy relys on selling you the image that you are not a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., I am wearing Nike, (Victory by the way) so I am succesful

18:54 <@Ana2> 3. all of its issues are resolving the position of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... by buying a product

18:54 <@Ana2> doesn't it start that you are first of all a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of a society that looks to your old shoes and you need new ones not because of yourselvf but because of society?

18:54 <@Ana2> as otherwise you will not get the job?

18:55 <@Ana2> and girlfriend and boyfriend?

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> I am imagining US marines to die for freedom now….

18:55 <@Ana2> and you may look suspicious to the police if you dont look like others?

18:55 <@Ana2> what freedom?

18:55 <@PeterFuchs> real freedom :P ?

18:56 <+stevan> they die to get regular sallary and to get out of geto

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> exatly!

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> exactly*

18:56 <@PeterFuchs> a really stark story, indeed

18:56 <@Ana2> yes and to have some aplauding during their life

18:57 <@PeterFuchs> I agree, with the points of Ana

18:57 <+stevan> to get dinity and social respect

18:57 <@Ana2> yes, because at the start you are the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of someone else… Let me rescue you freaks of socialism! buy buy

18:58 <+ad> I think that the POV inferred by the neolibreal economy blind us from seeing how this who is a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., perpetrates abuses to many others in his/her way to “success”, hence the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... somehow transfigures… sorry im not clear

18:58 <@Ana2> start again

18:58 <+ad> im trying to follow the line from PeterFuchs

18:59 <+ad> neo-liberal economy relys on selling you the image that you are not a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., I am wearing Nike, (Victory by the way) so I am succesful

18:59 <@Ana2> aha

18:59 <+ad> makes me think on a kid who once was shooting at me

18:59 <@Ana2> but we all came out of socialism as victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., though it was a better life.

19:00 <@Ana2> we were informed we were victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to be more precise

19:00 <@Ana2> shooting?

19:00 <+ad> yes, few bullets passing near my ears

19:01 <@Ana2> ups. columbia?

19:01 <+ad> yes, that happens when you get lost on a mountain biking trip

19:01 <+ad> and you have the “nike” shoes on

19:02 <@Ana2> and they dont make you fly?

19:02 <+stevan> that can happen as well if you get at the wrong time to a neighborhood that you don't belong to

19:02 <+ad> that makes you want a mini-uzi to answer

19:02 <+ad> stevan: yes, is not a colombian specific scenario

19:02 <@Ana2> healthy revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... peter did not believe into

19:03 <+ad> natural

19:03 <@PeterFuchs> so, we came to some interesting point in this discussion, yet, our today time is over, you can, of course, continue the discussion

19:03 <+ad> instinctive

19:03 <@Ana2> allready? time passes quickly, not like Madonna says :)

19:03 <+ad> heh

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> yet, officially, tomorrow at 10:00 we will continue with the topic of PSYCHOTHERAPY ONLINE

19:04 <@Ana2> we continue tomorrow. oh yes the hommage to recently passed away author of Eliza. I suppose everyone got that therapy already?

19:04 <@PeterFuchs> so thank you all for participating and sharing thoughts

19:05 <@Ana2> we have it with our resident psychiatrist Tihana and psychoterapist Tina - so prepare your troubles and put yourself in the comfortable position for tomorrow's session

19:05 <@Ana2> at least we will get cured through these sessions : )

19:05 <+stevan> t'n't then for tomorrow

19:06 < aleij> nice rest of the afternoon to everyone

19:06 < aleij> hasta mañana

19:06 <@Ana2> i have a quesiton how not to buy for them from todays session

19:06 <@Ana2> see ya!

19:06 <+andreja> cao

Official debate is over for today, check back for tomorrow at 10:00 GMT+2 for PSYCHOTHERAPY ONLINE