Participants: Andreja Kulunčić, Tina Peraica, Tihana Jendričko, Stevan Vuković, Adila Laidi-Hanieh, Peter Fuchs.
Moderated by: Ana Peraica.

10:02 <@Ana> So welcome everyone again. I think my first task would be to introduce you, I will go by the order I see..

10:02 <+Tina> yes

10:04 <@Ana> Peter is my assistant, he is a curator, Adila Laidi a curator who has wrote a text on her show (I think there is comment on the page), Andreja Kuluncic artist, Stevan Vukovic curator, Tihana Jendricko and Tina Peraica are our assistants from the Psychotrauma Center in Dubrava, working psychiatrist and therapist.

10:06 <@Ana> Angela has been our content manager and Pike our programmer and has made all these nice pages. (and Michiel is our guest?)

10:06 < pike> michiel is also a programmer / technician. he's standby as backup in case of problems.

10:06 <@Ana> First i got to thank you for the great work. And ask the question to everyone did you manage to read all materials and comments?

10:06 <@Ana> Hello MIchiel : )

10:08 <@Ana> There is a comment on Adila's text which has told a lot, about reflecting to the issue of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... There problem stated there if it is possible at all to dicuss victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in general (which is our morning session topic)

10:09 <+adila> pls restate question?

10:10 <@Ana> or it is always single-ness and it is the question of addressing. I think this comment was made by Tihana. Is that right?

10:10 <+tihana> Yes, it was my comment.

10:11 <+adila> the intent of the memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... originally was to address families + the general public + the international community through the media

10:11 <@Ana> I think you have been commenting projects between and this was the question you were underlining between Adila's text and project described in Anur Hadziomerspahic interview

10:12 <@Ana> though each of them was reflected as a person, not the number.

10:12 <+tihana> I commented that I really liked the way the Adila's project was made concerning the way the dignity of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... was preserved.

10:14 <@Ana> Me too, the as it was on the border between mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... which is personal but still not entering privateness of the griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... while at the same time talking on the general problem of war

10:15 <@Ana> they usually come as numbers only.

10:15 <+adila> an important issue for me is tht since 1948 we have suffereed a series of catastrophes taht r not memorialised/refelcted on, and this exhibition/memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... was a point of stillness and reflction

10:15 <+tihana> Exactly. It provided the personal space for families for their emotions and griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ..., but also made an impact on the broader society.

10:16 <+adila> yes fr an art space where we have few pple frm the genral public, we had 100s of vistrs, was amazing, especially in view of display/philosophy of mmrial

10:16 <@Ana> But you have stopped at the number 100. Why? how do you see the proliferation of memorials online from that perspective?

10:16 <+adila> secular, non political, humanistic

10:17 <+tihana> I think it is important to preserve this humanistic point of view even if it means fewer general public visitors.

10:17 <+adila> ues because one had to go w the realisation of the memerial, tehre are 3000+ dead as of now, also to emphasize the curatorial symbolic choice, hence artistic nature of the approach, not a purely documentary/representational aspect.

10:18 <+adila> pple were dying all the time, could nt wait fr death to stop to do the exhibition

10:18 <@Ana> from my perspective the amount of memorials which are made political spots actually and worst of all some of them are also parst of the morbid tourism (as Nazi concentration camps)

10:20 <@Ana> what i like about your project is that it doesn't attempt to enter that domain of political statement

10:20 <+adila> its a question of narrative, do u transform your suffering into an identity (esther benbassa's book) or do u feel tht one's experience is under narrated & under acknowledged and hence try to fill the void, as an artist not as a politician

10:20 <+adila> yes

10:20 <+adila> anyone else??

10:21 <@Ana> i don't know if you managed to read interviews online. there is an interview with an artist agricola da cologne who is producing virtual memorials and also joseph de lappe who has done iraq memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ...

10:22 <@Ana> i've asked one of them to whom the project is addressed. he stated to victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context .... so the question is but they are iraqi, how many of iraqi people can connect and see what you have done. he answered - only one they could see on the server connecting

10:22 <@Ana> so there is a connection to the people which is quite important - those that have experienced the loss

10:23 <@PeterFuchs> I am thinking about my own memorials, my experiences about them. Do any of you know a memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ..., which is not adressed to a special group of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

10:23 <@PeterFuchs> rather being a universal one?

10:24 <@PeterFuchs> something Ark of Noah type

10:24 <+tihana> I think all of them could have an universal message.

10:24 <@Ana> all memorials that are in hands of politics are not addressing anyone specific. or rather they address tourists today

10:25 <@Ana> sometimes they only serve to illustrate history and to be a platform for a political speech

10:26 <@PeterFuchs> most memorials I know share an univeral artisitc language, but not being universal in the sense, you can detach them from their political meaning

10:26 <@Ana> stevan you know quite many of them… mytho-political memorials?

10:26 <@Ana> how do you detach them from the political meanings?

10:26 <+adila> i agree w ana, this is why i stopped showing the mmrial or agreeing to more forign tours of the mmrial

10:27 <@PeterFuchs> by making them a memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... to not only the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of a given event, but an univeral one

10:27 <@PeterFuchs> universal*

10:27 <@Ana> that is what we have under us anyhow. necropolises

10:28 <+adila> yes pter that is always the goal i think otherwise why bother. ana i write in my txt tht necroplis wht w wnated to avoid

10:28 <@Ana> i still cannot grasp the universal message of memorials one peter and tihana see. can you elaborate?

10:28 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, I also agree with Ana, tourist book are making the most harm

10:29 <+adila> i think it hs to be built on identification; this could be me, this could hppen to me, no?

10:29 <@PeterFuchs> Yes, Adila

10:29 <@PeterFuchs> thats one of the key concept of modern memorials

10:29 <@Ana> unfortunately if you type holocaustHolocaust is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler ... and disneyland together in the gooogle you dont get the theory of some psychoanalitic or political writer but you get a tour by an agency that drives you straight from the disney land to another horror land

10:30 <@PeterFuchs> but consider memorials from the 19th century, which had a much different language, much limited, less universal

10:30 <+tihana> I agree with you, about the political concept. I was thinking also about keeping the identity.

10:30 <@PeterFuchs> more agressive

10:31 <@Ana> identification, might me as it seems for me that the whole culture today is a memorialA memorial is an object which serves as a memory of something, usually a person (who has died) or an event ... (museums, architecture…)

10:31 <+adila> to go back to the univerisalim issue, derrida wrote in 2001 about how to deal w the the pal question, away from prefab ideologies and rational and balanced ratioanles, he called it la raison du coeur, teh reason of the heart, old fashioned humanism..

10:31 <+adila> i think tht thre r 2 speeds hre; overmemorialising and its pitfalls and the unrecognized under memorialised victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

10:31 <@Ana> personal message, yes. the missing thing.

10:32 <+tihana> Yes, I might be old fashioned as well. To preserve humanity. Since war and destructions are dehumanised.

10:33 <@Ana> i don't know if you had the opportunity of seeing last venice bianual, which made me really angry and was actually an imput of this project. there were photos of people that died in many works, one of them usa soldiers. they were id photos taken from the archive and exhibited on bianual. i was quite curious if family knew and what was this massive illustration illustrating

10:33 <@Ana> war and destructions are commercial today

10:34 <+tihana> That what I was thinking about some other project and dignity of the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ....

10:34 <@PeterFuchs> I read your text on it, yet was not able to go there

10:35 <@Ana> the critical point where people are really overly used in art (which was really contrary to Adila's function of curator as a channel of public griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ...)

10:37 <@Ana> but i wander if adila's concept can be used as a therapy tool? or how it reflects it in real

10:37 <+adila> dunno about therapy, more about validation and recognition

10:38 <@Ana> but there is a good formula there of managing with griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... especially with large numbers. you have also experienced others makeing similar memorials latter?

10:39 <+tihana> part of griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... and mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... are some ritualsFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ... that we have in life (funerals and different things we do to overcome the loss and separation), so this project also gives the oportunity to do so.

10:39 <@Ana> that is what i think. that is very important part of detachment?

10:40 <@Ana> or to put it other way around - memorials are made for survivers, not for victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

10:40 <@PeterFuchs> yes, an interesting point to start form

10:41 <+Tina> As Adila say, validation and recognition, they are important part of therapy

10:41 <+adila> survvrs r also vtcms, secondary

10:42 <+Tina> memorials are made for survivers, not for victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - for they therapy

10:42 <+tihana> Hm. It could seem so. Why do we go to funerals, for example. But it is the way to “send a message” how important the deceased ones have been for us or “for the world”

10:42 <@Ana> but do victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... mind? or we are only reconstructing our griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... into “what would victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... want” (that can be quite dangerous, as it is a starting point of the political revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...)

10:43 <+tihana> And as Adila says, in this way, survivors become victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ....

10:43 <+adila> this is the 1million$ question, how nt to instrumntlize i/e betray.

10:43 <@Ana> i think / feel we go to funerals to be together with other survivors

10:44 <+tihana> Just to remind on term “survivors guilt”.

10:44 <@Ana> can you summarise survivors guilt?

10:45 <@Ana> stevan was writing on this problem - can a survivor be a witnessA witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event ...?

10:46 <+Tina> or go to the funerals because of our earlier loss, to be a “victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...”, to be with our fear and sedness

10:46 <@Ana> Sadock (2003): a phenomenon that is manifested in those who are relieved that someone else has died, and not himself/herself. Persons that survive may believe that they should die, and as a consequence might have problems with establishing new relationships since they might have the feeling that they are betraying the deceased person. Certain ways of denying the death of the lost one occurs during the bereavementMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ...MourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ..., act of bereavementMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ..., griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... and mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... are

10:46 <+tihana> People that survive can feel guilty because they managed to survive, not their close one, and sometimes they wonder whether they could do something to save the one that died.

10:47 <@Ana> guilt conscience. is that the reason that survivors are easily manipulated?

10:49 <+Tina> That also can be decribe as a need to finish Gestalt.

10:49 <+adila> maybe, or opposite: putting on the identity of victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to get him/her revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., validation, reparation

10:49 <+tihana> I can't say they are easily manipulated, but this could important issue in their further life, relationships.

10:49 <@Ana> i mean if there is no time and place for griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... is survivors guilt continuing to operate? can it be dangerous?

10:50 <@Ana> finish Gestalt?

10:50 <@PeterFuchs> may I set the topic to “Survivors and VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., VictimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and Survivors”, to locate readers more easily?

10:50 <@PeterFuchs> *for readers to locate

10:51 <@Ana> yes Peter : )

10:51 <@Ana> Tina what was finish Gestalt?

10:51 <+tihana> It can be a prolonged or unfinished mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ..., and certainly unabling a person to go on with life and relationship. As if they are “trapped” in their griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... and memories.

10:51 <+Tina> Finish unfinished life cycles. finish with someone so you can go in new relationships

10:52 <@Ana> but arent memorials made also to remind in a way that you never finish? to remind on the loss?

10:53 <+Tina> finish “unfinished relations”

10:53 <+Tina> my connection is rrealy slow

10:53 <+tihana> Such ritualsFrom the perspective of anthropologic and psychological phenomena, rituals have certain importance in processes of grief and mourning ..., mentioned before help in “finishing”.

10:53 <@Ana> how do you know its finished? for example - you read couple of names relevant to you and you can think - ok i finished with this one, but not with this one

10:54 <@Ana> can it really be finished?

10:54 <+adila> yes if u find meaning/validation/ “depassement”

10:55 <+tihana> To accept the loss. You can remember someone, but accept they are not here, and the way you feel about that.

10:55 <@Ana> i am afraid i think that death is the only thing on this planet everyone tries to find a meaning for and it actually has NO meaning

10:55 <+andreja> we hope that at least that way of killing, the crime done wont be repeated .. but then in 40 years here it is again …

10:56 <+adila> accidental. premature death has a meaning

10:56 <+Tina> yes, it could be. you changing the realtion toward them.

10:56 <+tihana> Yes, but even if there is no meaning, death is part of a llife cycle.

10:56 <@PeterFuchs> interesting, why 40 years, you mean the post-yugoslavian situation?

10:57 <@Ana> what meaning? aren't meanings attached to situations?

10:57 <@Ana> maybe wars happen again as those meanings attached are more important at the end. and meanings change

10:57 <+andreja> the 2WW as well

10:58 <+andreja> do not have to, the 2 WW as well ..

10:58 <+tihana> Yes, the cause and circumstances are important.

10:58 <+Tina> There is a good book from Elisabeth k. Ross aboout death and dying and the emotions in each phase. the key element are emotions

10:59 <+andreja> can we violent death also see as a life circle?

10:59 <@Ana> but how then 40 years latter emotions instrumentalise? isn't that a really long period to forgive and forget?

10:59 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Light-Essential-Insights-Living/dp/1569246904/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211014753&sr=8-5

10:59 <@PeterFuchs> you mean this one?

11:00 <+andreja> nothing get forgive just forget, or?

11:00 <@Ana> yes. nothing gets forgive not forgotten! how it happens that after 40 years someone can appear and ask a revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... in the name of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and engage emotions of masses?

11:01 <+Tina> in some culture ye. transgeneration need for violent and for finishing

11:01 <+tihana> We usually accept that death should be of a natural cause, but in nature it is often violent. In humans it is often connected with agression. That way it is harder to except it.

11:01 <+andreja> as one of my friend dad say: we just hide the gun and wait for the next time :(

11:01 <+Tina> Aboth

11:01 <+Tina> “on death and dying”

11:02 <@Ana> so actually we put the meaning into victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... to work for us 40 years latter, which is actually what Adila wrote up that we become victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:02 <@PeterFuchs> on death and dying

11:02 <@PeterFuchs> http://www.amazon.com/Death-Dying-Elisabeth-Kubler-Ross/dp/B00021GM4A/ref=pd_sim_b_img_2 - is this one

11:03 <+andreja> i mean we forget what we (or our side) did or why the thing started and how many people died … but do not forgive what was done to ours ..

11:03 <+Tina> said, but thrue

11:03 <+tihana> Yes, it is personal for us.

11:04 <@PeterFuchs> the 40 years could be interpreted as a transistion period to become victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... again form the status of survivor?

11:04 <@Ana> meaning - violent death has a meaning while normal one has no meaning. there is a book from 19 century mirabeau i think which claims that all murders are sacred as giving meanings where there are no meanings

11:04 <+Tina> yes, that is a book.

11:05 <@Ana> i like peter's definition 40 years as a transition period to become victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... again.

11:05 <@Ana> cultural victimisation

11:05 <+andreja> what can be done in this 40 years?

11:05 <+tihana> I am far away from thinking that violent deaths are sacred.

11:06 <+andreja> how to stop (melt) that cicly?

11:06 <@Ana> me too, but why there is a certain imput of those that survived into victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... after the time of mourningMourning, act of bereavement, grief and mourning are terms that apply to the psychological reactions of those who survive a significant loss ... passes?

11:06 <+Tina> when a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... became a agressor. the triangle of power and violent

11:06 <+andreja> me too …

11:07 <+adila> again it's the question of “suffering as identity”, maybe when you have no othar identity

11:07 <@Ana> how can a dead person become an agressor? interesting!

11:07 <+tihana> To stop the cycle would mean to erase the agression in human beings.

11:07 <+andreja> uh, sounds immpossible then …

11:07 <@Ana> when you have no other identity you take the identity of the dead?

11:07 <+tihana> Preety much…

11:08 <+andreja> can we work with children?

11:08 <+andreja> have more succses?

11:08 <+Tina> the cycle can be stopped with different iniciatives- education, politics, project like this

11:08 <+andreja> they get “tocsicated” very young ..

11:08 <+tihana> It is important to work with young ones.

11:09 <+andreja> politics helps other way arround ..

11:09 <+adila> chidren are a vessel, u will compete w influences of soceity & family, but must try w that in mind

11:09 <@Ana> but children cannot understand what is death?

11:09 <+andreja> but yes what is hate

11:10 <+adila> yes

11:10 <+Tina> when you internalized some one. Yes, we can work with children but also with adults. Adults teling the stories

11:11 <@Ana> i think the good thing is that for children everything is personal, which is the true point

11:11 <+tihana> Till certain age, but certain negative emotions should not be transferred to children. As Tina says, they “copy” the adults.

11:11 <+Tina> but they can hear brutal stories from adult.

11:12 <@Ana> and watch TV…

11:12 <+adila> you can only expose them to as many viewpoints as one can, fr them to decide when grow up

11:12 <@PeterFuchs> My experince on Hungarian radicalsm is that in most cases the family educates the children to take the status of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... of event happened to the family (in the framework of the radicals, the nation)

11:13 <+andreja> so, if somone is killed violently in your family in your childhood it is almost impossible that you overcome the aggression it can “open” in you?

11:13 <@Ana> pretty much getting “infected” by politics of revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

11:13 <@Ana> yes, for us too. to be PROUD of our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:13 <+adila> but also need to provde thm w alternatives in life, some can cling to vctmhood as survvl status

11:13 <@PeterFuchs> familly histories, and family interpreteaion of event has a large effect on these children

11:13 <+Tina> hate, descructive emotion. but, can you imagine child growing up with hate of his grandparents or parents

11:14 <+tihana> It depends on family members and society's attitude toward it.

11:14 <@Ana> and religion, it is always based on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:14 <@PeterFuchs> yes, thats what I can also see, radical right families can be the starting point for many leftis here, as some sort of resistance to the family enviroment

11:15 <@Ana> but the transfer between grandgrandparents and the revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... after so many years. it really need to be encapsulated

11:16 <+Tina> to be PROUD of our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:16 <+Tina> to be PROUD of our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:16 <+tihana> It could be. It can become a myth transferred to other generation.

11:16 <@PeterFuchs> yes, Tina, thats what family stories imply

11:16 <@Ana> that is because the narrative of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is encapsulated in a fairytale type / or myth type / of good - bad which actually doesn't exist in real life… but can be memorized easily

11:16 <+Tina> to be PROUD of our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and HATE the others.

11:16 <+andreja> what about the proudnes of the killers?

11:17 <@PeterFuchs> yes, this is all included

11:17 <+Tina> religion, it is always based on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:17 <+Tina> religion, it is always based on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:17 <@Ana> yes. as our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are good and others are bad. and there are no other victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... usually in the tale

11:17 <+adila> must see afilm called massacre, interviews with killers who committed the sabra shatila massacre: unrepentantg!

11:18 <+andreja> what do they say?

11:18 <@PeterFuchs> can you provide link, Adila?

11:18 <+Tina> religion, it is always based on victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:19 <@Ana> i think tina has problems with a key that copy pastes but sounds like a strage warning here

11:19 <+andreja> :)

11:19 <+tihana> right.

11:19 <+andreja> yes, i keep thinking on that one sentence she is repeating ..

11:20 <@Ana> there is a book tihana has mentioned and it was really strange reading the summary on intellectuals and war

11:20 <+andreja> as, they (the religion victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...) by being a victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... overcome the victimisations.

11:20 <@Ana> they get institutionalized in metaphysics?

11:21 <+stevan> they get sublime and therefore untouchible

11:21 <@PeterFuchs> is religion defending you form victimization, or?

11:21 <@Ana> no, it is enfrocing. but i think it is the PASSIVE AGRESSION

11:21 <+Tina> I see

11:22 <@Ana> isnt that true “I am suffering for you on the cross” therefor YOU SUFFER!

11:22 <+Tina> that is my agression toward my computer

11:22 <+andreja> for for the people in general it give you a right cause

11:22 <+stevan> judeo-christian religions institutionalize the role of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:22 <+adila> info on sabra shatila massacre film: intervews w unrepentant killers: film is called: massaker: http://www.german-cinema.de/app/nextgeneration/film_view.php?film_id=1314

11:23 <@Ana> but muslim is as well?

11:23 <+stevan> of course

11:23 <+tihana> Yes, giving them the right cause. To make sense.

11:23 <@PeterFuchs> yes, it is implemented into the basics of the narratives of the primal texts of these religions

11:23 <@Ana> but there are priviledged victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in the bible and ones that are not. priviledged are heroes, while others are just there

11:24 <@Ana> encapsulated

11:24 <+adila> i think religions is 1 thing and instrumentatlisation anothr, one cannot essentalise all religions like tht: religion-victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... cult.

11:25 <@Ana> but i think that is the way the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - survivor (narrator) form is made: victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are good, others are bad and there are no other victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... but our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...…

11:25 <+Tina> my copy and paste was sucesfull. the new topis is here

11:25 <+tihana> Heroes tries to give the positive message to do certain things, and to act for positive values. Even to give life.

11:25 <@Ana> yes it was really strange experience for us tina, like a warning

11:25 <+adila> again, religions do not inherently promote victimization, but r an instument fr that

11:26 <@Ana> christianity promotes self-victimisationSee dependence projective identification ...

11:26 <+Tina> and also a lot of shame and “hard” emotions are in judeo-christian religions. the muslims don't have that. they have revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

11:26 <@Ana> as far as i see the bible it promotes public sucides and passive agression

11:26 <+adila> all christianity? hopw about guilt rather?

11:27 <+adila> rvenge was in judaism first.. an eye for an eye??? lets not conduse again religions and their instrumentalisation

11:28 <@Ana> revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... comes as a practice, it is the ecconomy and therefore has nothing to do with metaphysics

11:28 <+adila> yes

11:29 <@Ana> but it is built in the survivors tale - that is the motif of the story, i assume???

11:29 <@Ana> stevan, you were writing on this… how would you read a narrative formula of the victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... - survivor in both religion and folk tale and family stories?

11:31 <+stevan> well, to start from something close to our region, in former Yugoslav history schoolbooks from WW2 onwards patriotism was mostly defined as “willingness to give away one's own life for one's country:

11:31 <+adila> yes, but rmmber patton's funny/scary phrase

11:31 <@Ana> and heroes of Yugoslavia were suicidal basically “Cowards shoot in me” (Rade Koncar)

11:32 <+adila> can u explain this phrase ana?

11:32 <@Ana> i mean public suicidal which is enforcing a guilt conscience

11:32 <+adila> cowards shoot in me?

11:33 <@Ana> Rade Koncar was a “hero” that was taken to be shoot by Nazis and he was turned from back to them so he asked them to shoot them straight looking in the eyes

11:33 <+stevan> he was challenging his adversaries to kill him and turn him into a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:33 <@Ana> anyhow he died, but this sentence has made him a hero

11:33 <+adila> ok

11:33 <@Ana> yes! he made them aware of the position they could not get out afterwards - he made the self-victimisationSee dependence projective identification ... claim instead of just being killed

11:34 <+Tina> “Kukavice pucajte u prsa” - that was Rade KOncar?

11:34 <@Ana> he proclaimed… that is the Christ's logics

11:34 <+adila> all this macho ethos also is very important, at play w kamikaze and some us ww1 war regoments

11:34 <+tihana> Yes, as if he got the power instead of them.

11:34 <@Ana> yes, rade koncar (now his name is a brand for fridges)

11:35 <+adila> amazing!!

11:35 <@PeterFuchs> every time you open the fridge, you face nazis?

11:35 <@Ana> yes, but we also have women Jean d?Orealn

11:35 <+andreja> or a brave koncar …

11:36 <@PeterFuchs> an egg maybe, some milk, and the shame you could not sacrificeSacrifice is commonly known as the practice of offering food or the lives of animals or people to the gods as an act of propitiation or worship ... your life like he did

11:36 <@Ana> he was a hero, hero and the practice of naming after heroes / victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... was really socialistic so he turned out to be a brand for the fridge… he was not forgotten

11:37 <@PeterFuchs> like nameing public spaces after victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ..., not heroes, or rather hero-victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:37 <+Tina> :=

11:37 <@Ana> yes… when you read the map of the city it is the victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... and cultural workers only (names of streets) where cutlural workers appear to be victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as well somehow… never understood

11:38 <@PeterFuchs> our citeis, at least in eastern Europe are some sort of narrative maps, maps of victimization also

11:38 <+stevan> once i got shocked as a child when realizing that my mother has just ought stockings produced by the company named after Nada Dimic, a partisan hero who was tortured by the Nazis by ripping of her toenails… and we have learned that in school as well

11:38 <@Ana> hero:victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... is a narrative which is expected of the other victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... as well. they need to become heroes, thats why revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ...

11:39 <+stevan> not ought but bought

11:39 <+tihana> :)

11:39 <@Ana> i was shocked like that when i read that st lucretia was cut of her breasts and she keeps them ont he plate in the church and we celebrate the day of hers with small candles. monstrous

11:40 <@Ana> zombie victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...

11:40 <@PeterFuchs> hehe

11:40 <@Ana> maps of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...… or victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... that transgressed into metaphysics by the means of horror

11:41 <@PeterFuchs> the map of victmis seems to be a narrative for me

11:41 <@Ana> and a retourn of the dead… i have a question for Tina and Tihana, they know it clinically. Why retourn of the dead is so frequent tale???

11:42 <+tihana> I am not sure what you mean exactly?

11:42 <@Ana> victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in the center of the city, victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... around the church and “those that did not get their streets yet”

11:42 <@PeterFuchs> resurrection

11:42 <@Ana> yes, and zombies and fears around graveyards and similar stuff

11:43 <@Ana> repressed always returns?

11:43 <@Ana> that has to do with griefGrief without complications is a normal response to loss. In the first phase it is usually manifested as a state of shock, with expression of numbness or bewilderment ... and never-forgivingThe trait forgiveness is the disposition to forgive interpersonal transgressions over time and across situations ... as Andreja said

11:44 <+adila> and w gvng meanng to death: revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... thru remmbering

11:44 <+tihana> It could be several issues. Unresolved feelings toward the lost one, sometimes guilt, general fear of such powerfull thing like death is.

11:44 <+Tina> you, think in psychological way? to not forgive history, or to made a history. You, think that are all true. i am not sure

11:44 <@Ana> yes, revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ... is retelling and reframing and encapsulating the narrative into a genetic material message

11:45 <+tihana> Yes, encapsulating is important as we said. And can lead to reframing.

11:45 <@Ana> yes, but where the FEAR from retourn of the dead comes from? are we afraid they are going to take us so we cannot retell any more?

11:46 <+Tina> and also somethimes and need for heroes, for ideals

11:46 <+tihana> We can feel guilt and be afraid of their revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered .... I think “if they come and take us with them - to death” is scary enough.

11:46 <@PeterFuchs> we are afraid of becoming like the dead, in a more agressive way, in case of the zombies, by their very help, much like in the case of the plague

11:47 <@PeterFuchs> don't forget, zombies are dead AND infectious!

11:47 <@Ana> so we repress our own victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... in a freudian sense?

11:47 <+stevan> it is not the frear of becoming dead but undead

11:47 <@Ana> fear of having no meaning?

11:48 <+adila> yes, well put

11:48 <+stevan> fear of being cut off from any signification

11:48 <+tihana> To become like death, could mean that we loose us emotions. And to have no meaning is very imprtant.

11:49 <@PeterFuchs> but the reamin a tool, a tool of death as undead

11:49 <@Ana> that is the negative character (witch, murderor, agressor) and victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... again

11:49 <+tihana> We always need to have some meaning.

11:49 <@Ana> victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... have meanings and undead has no meaning, hm

11:49 <+Tina> to be no one. narcism

11:49 <@Ana> at least from someone else…

11:50 <@Ana> but isnt the Rade Koncar “turn” of the position of a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... into a hero narcissism as well?

11:50 <+tihana> It is a narcisism of every of us. Yes, Ana, true for Rade.

11:51 <@Ana> isn't that a key difference? that ordinary victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... (have no better formula) are killed anonymously, while heroes are narcissitic identities of victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...?

11:51 <+tihana> People that are charismatic in different ways have a large amount of narcisism.

11:52 <+Tina> that is a always need toward others

11:52 <@Ana> but we dont know for his charisma, we only know the tale he was brave (still i don't understand for what - turning back to front?)

11:53 <+tihana> It is also connected with our need to have heroes, protectors.

11:53 <+Tina> he become important after that act. i don't know what was him before that

11:53 <@Ana> metaphysics. our victimsIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... are watching onto us

11:53 <+tihana> With project our needs to such heroes, we can feel safer that way.

11:54 <@Ana> he was about to be killed with others and then he told that and inverted the position - becoming actually the agressor in the meaning. agressive victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ...; puting a guilt conscience

11:54 <+tihana> Someone to look upon. Someone to protect us. We like to have a strong and powerfull father when we are children.

11:54 <@Ana> All right time to close the discussion already? Who feels like continuing, who feels like break?

11:55 <+tihana> All right to make a break.

11:55 <@Ana> Others?

11:56 <+stevan> ok, and perhaps for the end: a good example for a victimIn different sciences the term victim has different meanings. The term is most often use in criminology, religion, psychotherapy and New Age context ... acting to finish 'unifished relation' is of a Natrascha Kampusch, who was held captive by Wolfgang Priklopil for eight and a half years at the basement of a house near Vienna, until she escaped on 23 August 2006, and has subsequently, after the case has settled, decided to buy that very house herself to prevent it from being turned into a tourist attraction.

11:56 <+Tina> that sound a litlle morbid. no one look me

11:56 <@Ana> sick! but she had no other identity?

11:57 <@PeterFuchs> so back at 17:00? Good point to start from.

11:57 <+adila> ok

11:57 <+Tina> I am for break to

11:57 <+stevan> ok

11:57 <+andreja> ok

11:57 < pike> Tina - could you check your mail ? we may improve your connection.

11:57 <@Ana> yes. We will make a transcript of the discussion. Many great points! Especially differences victism - heroes, revengeFrom a developmental perspective, desires for revenge may have important adaptive functions in order to help the patient contain anxieties associated with developmental tasks that have not been mastered ..., encapsulation, 40 years cycle…

11:58 < AngelaPlohman> the chat will stay open the whole afternoon, but we'll officially resume at 17:00

11:58 <@PeterFuchs> ok, bye all, see you at 17:00